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Post by dustonegt on Jul 23, 2009 16:58:02 GMT -5
When British colonists put on the clothing of the Native American and walked out into the ships in Boston's harbor, they weren't there to protest peacefully or be law-abiding citizens. The message they sent the King of England was simple: "If the law no longer protects our interests, it will no longer protect yours." They let him know that the days of a peaceful and law-abiding citizenry had come to a close in the face of evil and corrupt laws. Fast forward to 2009. Conservatives and others angry at the recent government actions gathered en masse in many cities to protest peacefully and dubbed these events TEA Parties, but unfortunately the message they sent was far different: "We are unhappy with current government policy, but will continue to abide by the law and work within the corrupt political system." This is about to change. Many citizens, upset at the lack of results from peaceful things such as voting, calling and writing government officials and even mass protests are about to turn to the time-honored American tradition of minor law-breaking in the form of vandalism and property damage. Read the rest here: www.nolanchart.com/article6657.htmlEnjoy!
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Post by trap115 on Jul 23, 2009 17:16:27 GMT -5
a veeeery intresting idea. it may come to that
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Post by busboy on Jul 23, 2009 17:40:51 GMT -5
Interesting indeed.
Can't fix the "system" as our Founders handed to us, but we think we can "revolution" our way back to it.
The Founders had no option, as they never had power or control of their government.
Today we have absolute power and control over our government, but because too many of the owners, the "We the People", are just too ignorant, lazy or apathetic to exercise their authority, we have a mess.
We won't do those easy things we could do to fix our system, but we amuse ourselves with a fantasy of being able to "force" Liberty back on to this nation, sad notion indeed.
The people of 1775 wanted Freedom and Liberty, but yet had no means to secure it for themselves. 2009, we have every means, but no real desire.
Face it folks, until, and not until, your friends, family, neighbors and co-workers want Freedom and Liberty AND they are educated on how the system works, will we ever have Freedom and Liberty in this nation.
Short attention spans don't mean the system is not working. I just means "We the People" don't care enough.....yet.
Education of the masses will go a long ways to fixing this nation's woes.
Selfish frustration on the part of a few will only make the prospect of losing this nation even greater.
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Post by dustonegt on Jul 23, 2009 18:03:05 GMT -5
Interesting indeed. Can't fix the "system" as our Founders handed to us, but we think we can "revolution" our way back to it. The Founders had no option, as they never had power or control of their government. Today we have absolute power and control over our government, but because too many of the owners, the "We the People", are just too ignorant, lazy or apathetic to exercise their authority, we have a mess. We won't do those easy things we could do to fix our system, but we amuse ourselves with a fantasy of being able to "force" Liberty back on to this nation, sad notion indeed. The people of 1775 wanted Freedom and Liberty, but yet had no means to secure it for themselves. 2009, we have every means, but no real desire. Face it folks, until, and not until, your friends, family, neighbors and co-workers want Freedom and Liberty AND they are educated on how the system works, will we ever have Freedom and Liberty in this nation. Short attention spans don't mean the system is not working. I just means "We the People" don't care enough.....yet. Education of the masses will go a long ways to fixing this nation's woes. Selfish frustration on the part of a few will only make the prospect of losing this nation even greater. Wrong. First, the colonists had experienced freedom. Before the French and Indian Wars aka Seven Years' War, the colonies were largely ignored by the central powers of the British Empire. Parliament had all sorts of oppressive laws, but they were never enforced in the Americas because they were too remote and the enforcement wasn't a priority in London. After the Seven Years' War, things changed. There were financial troubles in London because of massive debt incurred during the war and they wanted the colonists to pay for 'their share' of the debt through taxes. Control over the American colonies was now a priority, as was the collection of the taxes. The colonists were losing their freedom, freedom they had previously enjoyed. During the war the revolutionaries enjoyed the 'moral support' of perhaps a third of the population. You can't fight a war on moral support. Only about 10% of the population provided material support and fewer still (about 3%) were engaged in the fighting actively. Then as now, determined minorities run the show. Then, as now, many weren't sure whether to join the fight. When peaceful attempts at reform failed, they turned to destroying property before they turned to killing. The king's subsequent crackdown on the colonies led to the war. The problem today is that many people think in terms of a mass society with instant communication and rapid travel when they envision the times of the Revolutionary War.
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Post by busboy on Jul 23, 2009 22:46:39 GMT -5
Are you saying the system of government and system of control of that government today is the same as then?
Fact is the Founders established the nation we have today, in order to place the powers and controls in the hands of the People of this nation.
You are correct, that nearly 150 years prior to April 19, 1775, the Colonials had lived under their Colonial Charters/Constitutions, which provided for Liberties and Freedoms similar to what they would eventually set up for themselves, once Independence was gained. However, the "source" of power/authority for the Colonies was the King/Parliament, at least from the perspective of England and the rest of the world.
You are correct in saying that "you can't fight a war on moral support", however, you can not have a system of government based on Liberty and Freedom without it.
While a small percentage of Colonials physically participated in the actions, a majority supported the actions. This is evidenced by the continued disappointment of the Brits in trying to get the "Tories" to join them, they were usually 90% overly optimistic of the number of Tories which would join them.
Also, you are correct that the Founders were failing to retain the Freedoms and Liberties they had lived under for nearly 150 years. However, they were not seeking "reform", but rather a return to their previous status. There actions were a "rebellion" against the encroachments of the Crown, not an effort to reform the Crown, this came later.
They had no tools available to them to retain their status of freemen, all the powers/tools resided in the Crown.
The Founders, once Independence was gained, established a system/form of government to eliminate that scenario for generations to follow.
They gave us the ability to leverage the States against the Fed, or visa versa if needed. They did not have that.
They also gave us the ultimate power and authority within this nation, they did not have that.
They KNEW that if the Hearts and Minds of the American People were not for Liberty and Freedom, there would be nothing to preserve it, even with the country they had so skillfully and wisely set up.
The fallacy of too many is that we face the same "conditions" our Founders faced on April 19, 1775. The fact is we can never face those conditions because it is "We the People" who are in charge. The evil in our case is not a distant, out of control government, but rather a government which is bending to the will of a vocal minority, bent on making this nation a socialist/communist state.
The keys to preserving the nation is the Hearts and Minds of the American people, waking them up to the threats and WHAT THEY CAN AND SHOULD DO ABOUT THEM. This is to utilize those very tools our Founders gave us to do just that. In this case, We the People need to be leveraging our States to reign in the feds.
To step over the easy, and strike out with extra Constitutional means will not resolve the issues. If the Hearts and Minds of the American people were engaged, that would resolve the issue.
Violence and protests, without the backing of the American people, the owners of this nation, will not result in a restoration of this nation to our Founder's principles. It will result in more problems and a total loss of our nation.
What ever number of people "participating", in whatever violent or protest movement you imagine, that you deem needed to be successful. That number would be greater than the number of real Americans, with the Hearts and Minds for Liberty, working with the tools given to us by the Founders, to turn this nation around.
Afford yourself a mental exercise.
How many people would you need in your state to get your state headed in the direction of Freedom and Liberty, by force? Now, what would it take you to get that many people to actually take those very drastic measures?
Now, how many people in your state would it take to take control of the political process within your state? That number is much less than the above number. Now what is the probability of getting folks to step up to those tasks, rather than the ones required above?
Only delusion allows one to think they could more easily establish an army (violent or peaceful, matters little) to do those difficult and illegal activities to effect change, rather than getting people to engage in their duties as owners of their nation, legally and righteously.
34 states have or are discussing 10th Amendment Resolutions, this and a whole host of other pro-States legislation being passed and considered are all indications that the States are starting to retake their rightful position of protector of the Peoples Rights/Freedoms/Liberties. Most states are well on the way, needing only more support and momentum to maintain this course.
The feds realize they are "in trouble", thus the reason you hear nothing of these movements on the news. The Tea Parties could be much more effective if they were to advocate real action vs. focusing a protect exhibition directed toward D.C. 5-6 thousand people within most states would result in a state solidly dedicated and determined to protect Liberty.
Education, motivation and determination is what is needed in this nation. Not saying give up the option for what the Founders were forced into, but saying we are far from that point, and we have the very solution we need available to us today. We can step over the easy, simple and peaceful solution to try to use force to bring on Liberty (this has never worked in man's history), or we can avail ourselves to the gifts, blessings and wisdom of our Founders.
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Post by dustonegt on Jul 24, 2009 0:50:05 GMT -5
All true, but the legal framework for peaceful revolution does not always yield peaceful revolution, despite the desires, wills and efforts of a sufficient number of people.
Take the Nazis for example. There was a Weimar constitution that was technically still in effect all the way to 1945.
The founders knew this might happen to us as well. You talk of utilizing the tools they gave us, but when the more peaceful of the tools fail to work we were given some important last-effort tools by the anti-federalists in the form of the Bill of Rights.
It would be unwise to go straight for our second amendment right to fix things. We have to start with the more peaceful things as you suggest. We tried that and it failed. Those who don't realize this are in a state of denial.
The Founders gave us a republic, not a democracy where the majority vote gets whatever it wants. The minority protections have almost all failed. We are left with a self-bankrupting self-corrupting democracy.
It is still clearly not bad enough to justify going straight for the guns and bombs just yet.
So what's next? A relatively small display of force that shows that we aren't going to let their laws get in the way of our freedom. Going in the night to throw a few rocks can send this message. Enough people do it and it really sends the message home.
How it goes from there is up to them. Fix things? OK, we're peaceful again. Keep screwing us? OK, fine, we step it up another notch.
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Post by jollynator on Jul 24, 2009 8:53:47 GMT -5
The Tea Parties were IMHO nothing more than ticked off citizens who haven't the slightest clue of who to be ticked at.
The Bank's issuing power of currency is the enemy. That is law. Written on paper. Can only destroy it the way it was born.
By rewriting it or killing it by the Jury box.
No amount of bullets will stop it. So guns are not needed.
Brains are.
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Post by barelyillegal on Jul 24, 2009 9:46:29 GMT -5
I don't think we're there yet, but the idea is noted. I think doing this to private residences, however, would cross the line of petty vandalism to real violence. If a rock were to hit someone inside, especially a child, and it had a III on it, that would turn a lot of people against us.
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Post by georgiaowl on Jul 24, 2009 12:54:01 GMT -5
I was thinking about something less destructive. Small roadside signs.
I was thinking crosses with "Liberty" painted on them. Roadside Memorials, they're called around here....
there's no law against putting them up.....and it seemed like a good way to say " hey, they are killing your freedom."
But, thinking it over for a couple of months now, I decided that I didn't want to put up Liberty's tombstone just yet, and decided against doing that.
But something similar that would wake up people in their own neighborhoods.
Some type of legal "graffiti"....billboards are too expensive.....I don't know....
but I do feel like a grassroots campaign where some symbolic thing is put out there for everyone to see and "wonder" about is needed. Might make them say " what's with all the (insert thing here) showing up everywhere?"
Just making people talk to each other and ask questions might be enough to wake up many.
thoughts?
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Post by avordvet on Jul 24, 2009 14:13:05 GMT -5
Hmmm, Hey M.G. keep this in mind when we have our next meeting, I like it.
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Post by busboy on Jul 24, 2009 14:58:10 GMT -5
"We tried that and it failed. Those who don't realize this are in a state of denial." Perhaps you and I have tried this, be "We", as in "We the People" have not! Damn folks, look at your state elections! I would wager that many of your states have 30% or more of your State legislators running unopposed in their elections. Look at how FEW people even care about anything to do with the course of this nation. Of those who are willing to whine and complain (agreed, the Tea Parties are mostly these people, but we can fix that ), a scant few actually DO anything proactive or assertive. It ain't broke, it just is not being used. You send one letter to your representatives, and they still act against your will, this does not mean that program is broken. It just means it was poorly utilized. You and 1000 friends send the letters, now you are getting some traction. You and 10,000 do it, you will own that rep. Because he will either do your will or you and your 10,000 fiends put him on the street and replace him with one of your own. STATE LEVEL, STATE LEVEL, STATE LEVEL. It is insanity to look to D.C. for solutions, they got us here. The STATES is where we can reclaim our Liberty! The States can protect those who are willing to resist the outrageous Federal laws. The STATES and the STATE REPs can have a HUGE impact upon the actions of those reps in D.C. 99% of Americans don't have a clue that they even have State Reps, let alone are communicating to them. Public Education programs, which reach out to the average Joe and try to wake him up and motivate him to act like an owner of this nation, not a Subject. Some are nibbling on some good stuff here. The time to give up is not now, and reaching over the mantle for the musket at this point is giving up.
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Post by dustonegt on Jul 24, 2009 15:05:40 GMT -5
"We tried that and it failed. Those who don't realize this are in a state of denial." Perhaps you and I have tried this, be "We", as in "We the People" have not! Damn folks, look at your state elections! I would wager that many of your states have 30% or more of your State legislators running unopposed in their elections. Look at how FEW people even care about anything to do with the course of this nation. Of those who are willing to whine and complain (agreed, the Tea Parties are mostly these people, but we can fix that ), a scant few actually DO anything proactive or assertive. It ain't broke, it just is not being used. You send one letter to your representatives, and they still act against your will, this does not mean that program is broken. It just means it was poorly utilized. You and 1000 friends send the letters, now you are getting some traction. You and 10,000 do it, you will own that rep. Because he will either do your will or you and your 10,000 fiends put him on the street and replace him with one of your own. STATE LEVEL, STATE LEVEL, STATE LEVEL. It is insanity to look to D.C. for solutions, they got us here. The STATES is where we can reclaim our Liberty! The States can protect those who are willing to resist the outrageous Federal laws. The STATES and the STATE REPs can have a HUGE impact upon the actions of those reps in D.C. 99% of Americans don't have a clue that they even have State Reps, let alone are communicating to them. Public Education programs, which reach out to the average Joe and try to wake him up and motivate him to act like an owner of this nation, not a Subject. Some are nibbling on some good stuff here. The time to give up is not now, and reaching over the mantle for the musket at this point is giving up. I guess we're going to just have to respectfully disagree.
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Post by busboy on Jul 24, 2009 15:38:21 GMT -5
"We tried that and it failed. Those who don't realize this are in a state of denial." Perhaps you and I have tried this, be "We", as in "We the People" have not! Damn folks, look at your state elections! I would wager that many of your states have 30% or more of your State legislators running unopposed in their elections. Look at how FEW people even care about anything to do with the course of this nation. Of those who are willing to whine and complain (agreed, the Tea Parties are mostly these people, but we can fix that ), a scant few actually DO anything proactive or assertive. It ain't broke, it just is not being used. You send one letter to your representatives, and they still act against your will, this does not mean that program is broken. It just means it was poorly utilized. You and 1000 friends send the letters, now you are getting some traction. You and 10,000 do it, you will own that rep. Because he will either do your will or you and your 10,000 fiends put him on the street and replace him with one of your own. STATE LEVEL, STATE LEVEL, STATE LEVEL. It is insanity to look to D.C. for solutions, they got us here. The STATES is where we can reclaim our Liberty! The States can protect those who are willing to resist the outrageous Federal laws. The STATES and the STATE REPs can have a HUGE impact upon the actions of those reps in D.C. 99% of Americans don't have a clue that they even have State Reps, let alone are communicating to them. Public Education programs, which reach out to the average Joe and try to wake him up and motivate him to act like an owner of this nation, not a Subject. Some are nibbling on some good stuff here. The time to give up is not now, and reaching over the mantle for the musket at this point is giving up. I guess we're going to just have to respectfully disagree. Not sure what you disagree with, but if it is about giving up, sadly, there is little room for Lovers of Liberty to be giving up. There is no room for those who are willing to toss this nation and our Constitution under the bus because they are quitters. If the above comes off harsh, it is intended to be so. This generation and the many which come after it deserve and demand that UNTIL someone or some entity forcefully tries to take this nation, that those who are the current stewards of this land "make good use of it". Those who claim "I am tired of trying, so I will cast the first stone and get this started" are stealing the nation from those who hold the Founder's sacrifice dear, and our obligation to our Posterity sacred. Your Founders did not "quit you" in Valley Forge or Morristown. They hardly expect us to quit them when our conditions are a sunny garden walk compared to theirs. "Do not fire, unless fired upon!" This order was given, and obeyed at both Lexington and Concord on April 19th, 1775. Neither the militia of Lexington or Concord confronted the Brits in an aggressive manner, but rather a defensive manner. Anyone who advocates giving up the defensive option is a fool, but any who advocate abandoning our rightful position of "owners" of this for one of "victim" is equally so. THERE IS BLOOD IN THE WATER! The socialist movement is stalling! The States are stepping up. Your neighbors reality is being rattled. They are looking for answers, leadership, guns. You are ideally suited to help them with all three! You try to turn a Sheep into a Sheep Dog over night, they will get scared and run away. You tell you neighbor the only option is to grab his musket, he more than likely will just roll over and give up. We can not reach anyone with the "Alarm and Muster" if they don't see anything worth mustering for. Can't get them to muster with letters and peaceful action, you will NEVER get them to muster for blood and prison.
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Post by avordvet on Jul 24, 2009 15:46:32 GMT -5
"We tried that and it failed. Those who don't realize this are in a state of denial." Of those who are willing to whine and complain (agreed, the Tea Parties are mostly these people, but we can fix that ) Busboy - You need to temper your thoughts my friend, most of the people I know have gone to the TEA parties, a lot of A&M members in our state have gone to the TEA Parties. and in addition most of the people I have met at the TEA Parties are very patriotic hard working citizens that are just as tired of the situation as you and most that I have met are very politically active. So don't be so fast with that broad brush, Allies are allies, whether they are fully engaged or not at least they are doing something and that is a start... one more body on our side that wasn't there yesterday.
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Post by brocktownsend on Jul 24, 2009 21:54:35 GMT -5
I think we are incorrectly relating those of us today with the Patriots of '76 ( of whom one was my 3x great who saved the flag at Brandywine (Rev. Asbury Visits My G,G,G Grandfather In 1801 www.namsouth.com/viewtopic.php?t=42&highlight=pippen ) in that we are forgetting these same people would have been on the side of the South in '61, and would think everything after '65 wasn't worthly at all. If we could return to the principles of Washington's time, I would be most happy, but I see nary a possiblility, and not much for the success of any secessionist movement, but the success of a secessionist movement, if/when times become much worst, has a better possibily of success than returning to the principles of '76, unfortunately.
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Post by themachine on Jul 25, 2009 3:28:06 GMT -5
I think this dialog reinforces what 'brocktownsend' and 'busboy' have stated:
James Madison to Daniel Webster 15 Mar. 1833Writings 9:604--5
"I return my thanks for the copy of your late very powerful Speech in the Senate of the United S. It crushes "nullification" and must hasten the abandonment of "Secession." But this dodges the blow by confounding the claim to secede at will, with the right of seceding from intolerable oppression. The former answers itself, being a violation, without cause, of a faith solemnly pledged. The latter is another name only for revolution, about which there is no theoretic controversy. Its double aspect, nevertheless, with the countenance recd from certain quarters, is giving it a popular currency here which may influence the approaching elections both for Congress & for the State Legislature. It has gained some advantage also, by mixing itself with the question whether the Constitution of the U.S. was formed by the people or by the States, now under a theoretic discussion by animated partizans.
It is fortunate when disputed theories, can be decided by undisputed facts. And here the undisputed fact is, that the Constitution was made by the people, but as imbodied into the several states, who were parties to it and therefore made by the States in their highest authoritative capacity. They might, by the same authority & by the same process have converted the Confederacy into a mere league or treaty; or continued it with enlarged or abridged powers; or have imbodied the people of their respective States into one people, nation or sovereignty; or as they did by a mixed form make them one people, nation, or sovereignty, for certain purposes, and not so for others.
The Constitution of the U.S. being established by a Competent authority, by that of the sovereign people of the several States who were the parties to it, it remains only to inquire what the Constitution is; and here it speaks for itself. It organizes a Government into the usual Legislative Executive & Judiciary Departments; invests it with specified powers, leaving others to the parties to the Constitution; it makes the Government like other Governments to operate directly on the people; places at its Command the needful Physical means of executing its powers; and finally proclaims its supremacy, and that of the laws made in pursuance of it, over the Constitutions & laws of the States; the powers of the Government being exercised, as in other elective & responsible Governments, under the controul of its Constituents, the people & legislatures of the States, and subject to the Revolutionary Rights of the people in extreme cases.
It might have been added, that whilst the Constitution, therefore, is admitted to be in force, its operation, in every respect must be precisely the same, whether its authority be derived from that of the people, in the one or the other of the modes, in question; the authority being equally Competent in both; and that, without an annulment of the Constitution itself its supremacy must be submitted to.
The only distinctive effect, between the two modes of forming a Constitution by the authority of the people, is that if formed by them as imbodied into separate communities, as in the case of the Constitution of the U.S. a dissolution of the Constitutional Compact would replace them in the condition of separate communities, that being the Condition in which they entered into the compact; whereas if formed by the people as one community, acting as such by a numerical majority, a dissolution of the compact would reduce them to a state of nature, as so many individual persons. But whilst the Constitutional compact remains undissolved, it must be executed according to the forms and provisions specified in the compact. It must not be forgotten, that compact, express or implied is the vital principle of free Governments as contradistinguished from Governments not free; and that a revolt against this principle leaves no choice but between anarchy and despotism."
It seems that two camps of reasoning usually develop during these forum discussions. One viewpoint is pre-Constitution; the other is post-Constitution. The discussion above between Hamilton and Webster will hopefully clarify issues in some people's minds--note the date of 1833.
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Post by balddragn on Jul 25, 2009 12:52:52 GMT -5
This is my great fear when I hear people directing their anger at "The Government" or "Those Politicians". That if, in the fevered pitch of "We must do SOMETHING" wrong choices are made, then the best that can come of it is nothing and the worst is we shoot ourselves in the foot and lead our great nation into "anarchy" or "despotism".
We have the best "system" that ever existed, anytime, anywhere. No government in history has ever offered the people of the nation as much say as we have been offered. All that needs be done is to convince the puplic that they must exorcise that power, instead of passively watching from the sidelines as the politicians and media run unchecked.
Now ask yourselves what tools do we have to effect the change? I couldn't retain the title of "Master of the Obvious" if I didn't refer here to the old and worn adage "The pen is mightier than the sword". In other words we need to get the message out that WE the public are the stewards of freedom.
The question remains "How do we accomplish that?". How do we convince each person we know that they have the capacity and the duty to take this apparent bull by the horns and lead it where it needs to go?
Indulge me while I relate this to my own situation. My wife is as well meaning a person as you would ever find and WAS "as are many children of the sixties" extremely liberal. It was her understanding that it was the government’s job to tell the people how to act. Government was the solution to our woes.
I spent the first twelve years of our marriage trying to effect a change in that mentality with limited success. At first just having guns in the house was near the limit of her tolerance. It took an apparent threat to the welfare of our children to get her to the range and put a pistol in her hands. As she learned that she could master this weapon, and more importantly that the power it lent to her was neither god nor bad, she began to realize she was a citizen, not a subject. Slowly a change was happening.
My next effort was to get her to master a rifle, this is where it stalled. Several years went by without progress. I'm wise enough to know that a husband is often the worst person to try to teach anything to his wife (and visa versa) so I sought out another options.
I had heard of a group that was teaching rifle marksmanship and they were putting on an event in my area. I bribed my wife to go with me (she's a sucker for a good massage). They started out the morning with a patriotic theme that warmed my heart, and then quickly got down to the solid basics of rifle marksmanship. Within the first hour I saw my wife groups improve drastically (by the end of the day so had mine!).
I know this forum is not for talking about guns, bear with me.
At lunch the instructors started explaining what it was like for those people involved in the first hostilities of the American Revolution. Not about the politics or the logistics of the battle, but the people. I started seeing the light come on in my wife’s eyes. This combination of instilling her with the power to wield force, and explanation of how the average citizen of the 1775s used that force for the good of their countrymen and descendants effected the change that I had been struggling to make for 12 years.
Today her political viewpoint has changed. She no longer sees "government" as the answer. She also writes our state and federal representatives to let them know what we want from them. And most of all she sees that it is up to us to teach our fellows that they are not subjects to the government, but citizens, making sure our government hears us, either today or at the next election.
I implore each of those reading this to think about the actions we take from here. YES, something more needs to be done. That more is to teach, then to teach the student to be the teacher. This is the foundation that we can use to save this country.
I joined this board because I saw a need for greater communication among liberty minded Americans willing to do something to save this nation. As I read this board I find that some of the suggestions for action are things I have considered in the past and when those actions are followed to their logical ends and compared to similar actions in history have led people to places other than more freedom. Violent or malicious acts will get attention, but will inevitably kill the very cause they were used to promote. World history has shown us they end in “anarchy and despotism".
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Post by 2ncrca on Jul 25, 2009 13:30:48 GMT -5
There are people including members of my own family who have no problem with firearms of any kind, but they are convinced to the point of refusing to accept any notion to the contrary that capitalism exists to exploit the poor and lower classes. Wealth redistribution and government control over industry and businnes in general affords the only means to achieve economic and social justice. If government must confiscate personal firearms to secure implementation of the Marxist Socialist system then it is justified. In their own words, "communism is the most compassionate and humane system of government." When approached by the facts concerning the plight of the Soviet citizens and the mass executions during the reign of the USSR they are convinced that we were subjected to lies perpetrated by the US government to perpetuate the exploitation of the capitalist system. There is no way they can be turned. These same family members are ardent supporters of Obama and his regime.
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Post by Bowhunter on Jul 25, 2009 21:07:13 GMT -5
I say we start leaving rocks - not toss them - start gathering rocks - putting the III on them and begin leaving them at .gov offices. Just a start -
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ironwill
State District POC
Denver Colorado District POC
"The more corrupt the state, the more numerous the laws. ? Tacitus
Posts: 201
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Post by ironwill on Jul 25, 2009 21:50:36 GMT -5
I say we start leaving rocks - not toss them - start gathering rocks - putting the III on them and begin leaving them at .gov offices. Just a start - That is a good idea. It will prevent any backlash but might still get the message across...and if it doesn't, well then...
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Post by barelyillegal on Jul 25, 2009 22:31:41 GMT -5
I say we start leaving rocks - not toss them - start gathering rocks - putting the III on them and begin leaving them at .gov offices. Just a start - That is a good idea. It will prevent any backlash but might still get the message across...and if it doesn't, well then... I'll third that.
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Post by brocktownsend on Jul 25, 2009 22:48:47 GMT -5
I. I believe that we had the best form of government, but that it has been polluted by the Supreme Court, and probably not redeemable. II. "Violent or malicious acts will get attention, but will inevitably kill the very cause they were used to promote." I shall stick to my oath, and Lincoln, Jr. www.namsouth.com/viewtopic.php?t=98&highlight=sumter ain't gonna get me to do otherwise. www.namsouth.com/viewtopic.php?t=2744&highlight=oathkeepersMar 17, 2009 "I took my oath in 1966, and I shall stick by it, which means I shall use the Second Amendment for the purpose it was intended, and protect my family, and others from assault, whether it be from an individual or a government." Brock Townsend 10/'67 - 5/'69 USARV, 6/'69 - 09/'71 OICC/RVN+, 06/'73 - 25/04/'75 DAO, US Embassy RVN "And Now, After Sending Our Best Young Men To Die On distant battlefields fighting Communism, we may simply vote a Marxist into our highest office." 23 July 2008 III. 2ncra: Man, that's sad.
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Post by themachine on Jul 25, 2009 22:58:08 GMT -5
This is my great fear when I hear people directing their anger at "The Government" or "Those Politicians". That if, in the fevered pitch of "We must do SOMETHING" wrong choices are made, then the best that can come of it is nothing and the worst is we shoot ourselves in the foot and lead our great nation into "anarchy" or "despotism". I totally agree with that statement. Myself and others believe that we should utilize and exhaust every non-violent tool that the Founders afforded us in the Constitution. The other side of the story--that must be realistically prepared for--is the evolution of this existing "government" toward a pure democracy, ultimately leading to an oligarchy (despotism). This is the stage we are at now. I personally believe it's fascism; others say socialism, communism, etc...really doesn't matter, it's not operating as a Constitutional Republic. And yes, you and I know why, and we also know how it can be peacefully resolved. I'm just stating where things stand at this moment, and I'm not suggesting doom-and-gloom. I agree with this as well. I think there are more on here that want to take the "soft war" path, rather than going directly to the "hardcore" tactics; that's my perception, anyhow. World history has also shown that laziness, ignorance, and apathy also lead to their own destructive end--despotism. I put this Hamilton quote on this thread, because it succinctly spells out what so many others, on various other threads of this forum, have stated. It even places the steps in order, but the last part (which I underlined) is what some want to jump into first, while other people want to gloss over it:
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Post by brocktownsend on Jul 25, 2009 23:35:35 GMT -5
"and subject to the Revolutionary Rights of the people in extreme cases."
Yup.
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Post by dustonegt on Jul 26, 2009 0:16:48 GMT -5
But if the law no longer protects our interests, why should it continue to protect theirs?
Let's put it this way: If I get pulled over for speeding I can't just ignore the ticket. Make too big a scene at the side of the road and get arrested (or worse if the scene is big enough). If I just tear the ticket up after leaving I will get a warrant for my arrest later and wind up in jail. The point is I can't just choose to ignore the law that regulates my behavior.
Just try not filing your taxes if you want a more powerful example.
But the politicians? They ignore the laws which regulate their behavior on a regular basis and there are no ramifications.
So they can use coercive force to ensure that I comply with their laws, but the laws that bind them are easily ignored. We as 'law abiding citizens' are falling for a big scam when we let the leaders ignore the law.
By showing them willingness to violate small laws when they violate the supreme law of the land they can know the days of us just taking it are numbered and are given a chance to change their behavior accordingly.
They need to know that gutting the law to prevent it from protecting our interests also prevents it from protecting their interests, so therefore gutting the law is a bad idea.
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Post by dustonegt on Jul 26, 2009 0:19:07 GMT -5
Hey, I agree with the idea of placing the rocks gently first BTW. It's a great way to slowly escalate things and give them the idea before we go full throttle.
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Post by balddragn on Jul 26, 2009 3:29:19 GMT -5
You resort to personal disrespect (Lincoln Jr.) and call my comment sad? You don't have to look far to see the results of the type of action you propose. The local news loves those stories. Probably not the best way to uphold the oath we took. But by all mean proceed. I'm proceeding on my path to teach those I can to take personal responsibility, to teach them how to take control of this government back, to teach them how to teach others. Good luck to you. I. I believe that we had the best form of government, but that it has been polluted by the Supreme Court, and probably not redeemable. II. "Violent or malicious acts will get attention, but will inevitably kill the very cause they were used to promote." I shall stick to my oath, and Lincoln, Jr. www.namsouth.com/viewtopic.php?t=98&highlight=sumter ain't gonna get me to do otherwise. www.namsouth.com/viewtopic.php?t=2744&highlight=oathkeepersMar 17, 2009 "I took my oath in 1966, and I shall stick by it, which means I shall use the Second Amendment for the purpose it was intended, and protect my family, and others from assault, whether it be from an individual or a government." Brock Townsend 10/'67 - 5/'69 USARV, 6/'69 - 09/'71 OICC/RVN+, 06/'73 - 25/04/'75 DAO, US Embassy RVN "And Now, After Sending Our Best Young Men To Die On distant battlefields fighting Communism, we may simply vote a Marxist into our highest office." 23 July 2008 III. 2ncra: Man, that's sad.
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Post by avordvet on Jul 26, 2009 7:38:13 GMT -5
You resort to personal disrespect (Lincoln Jr.) and call my comment sad? You don't have to look far to see the results of the type of action you propose. The local news loves those stories. Probably not the best way to uphold the oath we took. I. I believe that we had the best form of government, but that it has been polluted by the Supreme Court, and probably not redeemable. II. "Violent or malicious acts will get attention, but will inevitably kill the very cause they were used to promote." I shall stick to my oath, Man, that's sad. One of the problems on this forum is people are taking a lot of things literally, most people are not going to run around busting out windows or fomenting revolutions, most statements like that are in jest or through frustration... so stop taking offense to not existent "offenses" So you want to "teach", by all means do it, A&M is naturally going to pull in most of the "hard cases", those who have had their blinders removed for many years. Most of us have been in this fight for a long time so we know the issues and we know the absolute betrayal of the the federal government and corrupt politicians that inhabit it. We know of the activist courts who every day, give legal standing to "social" or "foreign" case law and enforce unconstitutional laws and regulations passed by the above mentioned corrupt "lawmakers". We also know about the corruption within the "Fourth Leg" of our government... "The Press"... the "Guardians of our Republic" and their betrayal of America in their blind allegiance to the above mentioned corrupt government. So if you can't change the mind of people who are up on the issues and who actually try to do something about it, how can you possibly change the mind of the "Average Joe" who's minds are only concerned with watching CNN, American Idol or getting their news from Entertainment Tonight and the Colbert Report? People need to start debating the points, not the people making posts, we are starting to lose members because of this, if you cannot counter a point made by someone else YOU HAVE LOST THE DEBATE! either re school yourself or change your position. There is no reason to personally attack ANYONE for their statements on this forum, COUNTERING a point, stance, or thought with FACT, Yes. In my experience, if someone has to personally attack someone else for a comment or stance, it is because they have lost the debate but refuse to admit it. And for all of you holier than tho' jerky's out there who constantly rally against anyone talking about anything other than a Utopian ending to the constitutional problem we face, if you can't defend your position or counter the post, YOU HAVE LOST THE DEBATE! either re school yourself or change your position. End Rant... grabbing first cup of coffee Don
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Post by themachine on Jul 26, 2009 11:41:38 GMT -5
Balddragn, this is the quote that was referenced as being "so sad": There are people including members of my own family who have no problem with firearms of any kind, but they are convinced to the point of refusing to accept any notion to the contrary that capitalism exists to exploit the poor and lower classes. Wealth redistribution and government control over industry and businnes in general affords the only means to achieve economic and social justice. If government must confiscate personal firearms to secure implementation of the Marxist Socialist system then it is justified. In their own words, "communism is the most compassionate and humane system of government." When approached by the facts concerning the plight of the Soviet citizens and the mass executions during the reign of the USSR they are convinced that we were subjected to lies perpetrated by the US government to perpetuate the exploitation of the capitalist system. There is no way they can be turned. These same family members are ardent supporters of Obama and his regime. Your situation with your wife had a positive outcome, in comparison, but not everyone has the same results. I guess one of the frustrating things is where we are actually at right now. Of course education and informing people of the truth is key for turning things back to where they should be, and performing "damage control". The simple fact right now, is unprecedented things have already been done, which soon, we will all be dealing with the unprecedented outcome. Many may scoff at it, but we will shortly be living through the worst depression that this nation has ever faced. It's too late to educate or negotiate our way out of it, it's imminent. Anyone with a precursory understanding of economics knows that money can not be created out of thin air, with nothing backing it, along with essentially no productive outcome from it's creation, and expect something positive to come from it...this stuff is "economics for dummies". There are more countries talking about dumping the US dollar as a reserve currency then I can ever remember. IF this should happen, you will witness an economic implosion of catastrophic proportions almost immediately. We are going to be dealing with economic woes regardless, however. I am digressing from the original topic of this thread, but not so much, because as things get progressively worse--which they will before they get better--rocks will be thrown through windows, maybe not by patriots, but rather from people who have lost everything and have nothing else left to lose. The real sad part is we should have had A&M, Appleseed, SoL, C4L, and other groups 10 or so years ago, before things disintegrated to where they are now. I guess that's a lesson that wasn't learned from the Founders; we modern Americans wait for the front door to get kicked in, before we take action.
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Post by avordvet on Jul 26, 2009 12:12:19 GMT -5
Our economy is so fragile that a hard push from any area will throw it into collapse, I too believe we are looking at multi-year depression, hopefully during that period every politician and citizen that caused this financial mess is tried and executed.
6 million people out of work, the real unemployment is 16-18% not the 9.5% the government and press continue to report, Citizens are holding on to what they have and stocking up on everything from food to weapons and ammo, no one is spending money in the "economy". and the Federal Tax intake is already down around 30%... imagine what it is going to be at the end of the year.
Somethings going to give and give in a big way, hopefully enough of the sheeple are waking up, I just don't know if we have the time.
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