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Post by avordvet on Sept 6, 2012 18:07:20 GMT -5
Mosby bitch slaps the AR haters upside the head... I Offer YOU a Standing Challenge...September 6, 2012 So, to finally put this debate to rest, I'm going to offer this standing challenge. I will wager $500 in silver, AND re-imburse the cost of a training course (any of my open-enrollment courses) to ANYONE who is willing to accept this challenge, AND can successfully pull it off, over the course of the class:mountainguerrilla.wordpress.com/2012/09/06/i-offer-you-a-standing-challenge/
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Post by hefferman1 on Sept 6, 2012 18:29:17 GMT -5
Lets see an AR get stomped into the mud and work.
I have shot thousands and thousands of rounds down an AR, and it will not work with dirt in the chamber.
That is a BS challenge, because an AR can't do it, but another rifle is supposed to and still out shot his AR which has not been thrown in the dirt.
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Post by mountainguerrilla on Sept 6, 2012 19:09:15 GMT -5
Uh, no, it's a side-by-side test......My M4 gets thrown in the mud and lubed with Crisco too.........Seriously Hefferman, are you the only person who's read that and misunderstood that part?
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Post by avordvet on Sept 7, 2012 3:45:40 GMT -5
Lets see an AR get stomped into the mud and work. I have shot thousands and thousands of rounds down an AR, and it will not work with dirt in the chamber. That is a BS challenge, because an AR can't do it, but another rifle is supposed to and still out shot his AR which has not been thrown in the dirt. There you go hating again... I posted a run through not more than a couple months ago where they did just that to an AR... mudded it up, watered it up and kept on firing where the AK failed.
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Post by avordvet on Sept 7, 2012 3:46:39 GMT -5
Uh, no, it's a side-by-side test......My M4 gets thrown in the mud and lubed with Crisco too.........Seriously Hefferman, are you the only person who's read that and misunderstood that part? Well in his defense, he is a Marine...
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Post by aronatbc on Sept 7, 2012 7:56:21 GMT -5
Uh, no, it's a side-by-side test......My M4 gets thrown in the mud and lubed with Crisco too.........Seriously Hefferman, are you the only person who's read that and misunderstood that part? Well in his defense, he is a Marine... Hey now... I is a Marine two... Er... I am a Marine as well. Sorry, flashbacks. As for the rifle platform debate... It's an interesting wager. I own 3 AR's of various configurations, am building a 4th for my Daughter, and am thinking of selling one of mine to help finance another AR in .308. I still want an M1A at some point. More for nostalgia than anything else. It's a reliable workhorse, but is also cludgy and heavy by comparisson. AK's? No. I expect better accuracy from my firearms. Yes you can accurise them, but most AR's come out of the box with better accuracy and only get better from there. The only variant I've even come close to considering is the Druganov SVDS.
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Post by hefferman1 on Sept 7, 2012 9:47:31 GMT -5
Uh, no, it's a side-by-side test......My M4 gets thrown in the mud and lubed with Crisco too.........Seriously Hefferman, are you the only person who's read that and misunderstood that part? Did you say that? NO! You stated they would do that to their weapon. Then you would shot side by side. You did not state you would throw your weapon in the mud with an open breach also. That would mean it is a fair contest. I stand corrected.
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Post by avordvet on Sept 7, 2012 12:45:03 GMT -5
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Post by avordvet on Sept 7, 2012 13:00:33 GMT -5
AK's? No. I expect better accuracy from my firearms. Yes you can accurise them, but most AR's come out of the box with better accuracy and only get better from there. The only variant I've even come close to considering is the Druganov SVDS. Each gun has its own pro's and con's, we had an armory full of weapons, and I liked various weapons for different environments, Desert, hard cold ops M-14... Urban, woodland M16... Just gettin some, M60. Although all can work in most environments, each has its own strengths and weaknesses. Same with handguns, there are a lotta good weapons out there, But, if you want 100% reliability 99.9% of the time? carry a revolver.
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Post by hefferman1 on Sept 7, 2012 15:04:52 GMT -5
AK's? No. I expect better accuracy from my firearms. Yes you can accurise them, but most AR's come out of the box with better accuracy and only get better from there. The only variant I've even come close to considering is the Druganov SVDS. Each gun has its own pro's and con's, we had an armory full of weapons, and I liked various weapons for different environments, Desert, hard cold ops M-14... Urban, woodland M16... Just gettin some, M60. Although all can work in most environments, each has its own strengths and weaknesses. Same with handguns, there are a lotta good weapons out there, But, if you want 100% reliability 99.9% of the time? carry a revolver. See we even disagree on Machine Guns. I would take a MG-3 in .308 any day of the week. The M60 is a poor attempt to make a half @@@ copy of the MG42. The MG-42 is the greatest MG ever made, and happens to be the grand father of the MG-3 which Germany carries today.
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Post by avordvet on Sept 7, 2012 15:14:38 GMT -5
See we even disagree on Machine Guns. I would take a MG-3 in .308 any day of the week. The M60 is a poor attempt to make a half @@@ copy of the MG42. The MG-42 is the greatest MG ever made, and happens to be the grand father of the MG-3 which Germany carries today. Again the M60 is one of those weapons that always got a bad rap, We used the M60 Basic and the Delta, and if the weapons were maintained correctly, they would treat you right. I have seen them take massive abuse and keep on firing, Luckily I had a mentor who as a VietVet was very skilled with the M60, and once the weapons were set up correctly (double wound springs. etc.) the weapons were fairly reliable, with a lower than normal jam rate. We also ran the M240 and M134.
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Post by m21308 on Sept 7, 2012 18:18:02 GMT -5
I'll take a 60 any day. I can make them sing. And what beautiful music they make. I like the MG-3 also, but the rate of fire is way higher than it needs to be. The 60 is perfect. I prefer the additional firepower of the M14 platform over the M16ish due to the VASTLY superior penetration of "potential" cover. I never did mind the extra weight, but then I had 22 inch biceps and benched 400ish so the heft of the wee bit of extra weight of the rifle and a few extra rounds meant nothing to me. I also like my ARs but prefer my 20" Heavy barrel over any of the carbines/middies. Folks with small (regular) sized arms will probably prefer the lighter rifle. Nothing wrong with that. I like rifles. Always have and I am very comfortable with them. I would not feel under-armed fighting with only my bolt M1917 or a 10/22 for that matter. Fight with what YOU are comfortable with and let's quit arguing about silly stuff.
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Post by hefferman1 on Sept 7, 2012 21:16:47 GMT -5
MG-3 1000 RPM PPPEEEEERRRRRFFFFFFFEEEEEECCCCCTTTTTT!!!!
Besides a M60 will jam too much. It was a cheap copy of a MG, and it sucked.
The 243 is a big improvment over the m60, but still not as good as a MG-3.
P.S. If you do not like the rate of fire, make the spring stronger and open the muzzel cone up. It is that easy to adjust the rate of fire. That is the difference between a new MG-3 900 RPM, and an older model that is 1000 RPM.
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Post by hefferman1 on Sept 7, 2012 21:18:07 GMT -5
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Post by m21308 on Sept 7, 2012 22:19:51 GMT -5
I certainly won't argue against the MG-3. It is a great gun and sweet to shoot (as long as you have a vehicle to carry it around in). I had no trouble with it but not every gunner/A-gunner is strong enough to hump the extra weight of the ammo it takes to keep it going. It is a terrible gun for Light and Airborne infantry as is the M240. But what is the alternative? They needed to make a lighter version so that more ammo can be carried. The rate of fire of the MG-3 is 900 rounds per minute with the new bolt. The old bolt had the rate of fire at 1200-1500. The gun weighs 25+ pounds. The tripod and T&E used by the Germans is far too cumbersome. It IS a good system but it (like ours) needs to be redesigned from scratch. The M60 was also a terrible gun for any but the best gunners. Mine never jammed, but then I was in a unit that used ours a lot and because of our constant alert status got them replaced frequently. Plus I had the added advantage of attending the three week M60 Machine gun Leaders course back in 1982 taught by the guy that helped develop the M60 so we learned things others never will about THAT gun. Most gunners had real problems with them and that was understandable. They ARE high maintenance. But if you DO the maintence then it will run flawlessly even if wet and muddy. Most problems were because the crews were improperly trained or the units did not support proper maintenance and range/training time (poor leadership). German doctrine called for a six man crew for the MG-3, necessary when the gun itself is a bit heavier and longer, the bulky tripod/T&E and all of the ammo that gets thrown down range due to the rate of fire. The argument can be made that perhaps because the gun is more reliable than the M60 then the six men for one gun are better utilized than under the U.S. doctrine of two men per gun. Prior to the TO&E changes to the infantry in the 80s it was three. Two is not really enough for any gun. The M60's slightly lighter weight of 23 lbs, coupled with a simpler (yet still too heavy and antiquated) tripod as well as slower cyclic rate of fire of 550 rpms, means the gunner can stay in the fight longer since he is not burning through the ammo as fast so a large gun crew is not necessary, SO the same number of men can field more guns (their idea not mine). I was a 60 gunner and excelled at it so much so that I eventually trained a team that won the All Army machinegun competition. My gunner that year was amazing. So I thought the machinegun part of the Bundeswehr Schnutzenschnur Weapon Qualification would be a cakewalk. Nope. Their guns were set for 1300 rpm. It was near impossible to keep controlled bursts. Now the German gunners that were used to it did better but they still could not put accurate rounds on target (without using a lot of ammo) like our guys could with the 60s. If I was rich and smarter I would like to make a titanium alloy hybrid M240/G3/60 using the best of each. AND completely redesign a lightweight (not too light as it still must help hold the gun down) tripod. Now that would be cool. But I still prefer a good rifle over a machinegun. They are loads of un to shoot as long as someone else is buying the ammo ESPECIALLY the MG-3.
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Post by brocktownsend on Sept 7, 2012 22:27:48 GMT -5
Fight with what YOU are comfortable with and let's quit arguing about silly stuff. Amen.
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Post by avordvet on Sept 8, 2012 6:27:12 GMT -5
Fight with what YOU are comfortable with and let's quit arguing about silly stuff. Amen.
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Post by Michael Downing on Sept 8, 2012 8:32:29 GMT -5
Five Smooth Stones... Amen
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Post by Michael Downing on Sept 8, 2012 9:15:20 GMT -5
Why Five Smooth Stones? As always I believe faith is the most important of all of the pillars of preparedness. In the worst of situations your faith will sustain you. The question is often asked why when David went to the stream did he select 5 stones? Why not just one? Did he not have faith in God to sustain him? A popular but unsupported answer is that Goliath had 4 brothers. Others say that to have selected just one stone would have been presumptuous and David felt that it would appear to test God. Perhaps David felt that if he could not get the job done with 5 stones then it would be too late and he would be done in by the Philistine. Mores than 4 or 5 would become cumbersome and add unneeded weight. In light of the upcoming small arms treaty to be signed on July 27th and its possible ramifications on our 2nd amendment rights in the future while we continue to prepare and fight the daily transgressions on Liberty we need to remember to "keep the faith" and never forget that once so long ago it only took one of five stones... Read more: alarmandmuster.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=faith&action=display&thread=10933#ixzz25t5wNgjY
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Post by Michael Downing on Sept 8, 2012 9:36:25 GMT -5
I have posted before on my belief that faith is the greatest of all the pillars of preparedness and is much more than just our faith in the Creator. It is also a faith in ourselves, our family, our tribe, our abilities and our preparations. In survival situations it is most often those of strong faith that survive what many would consider unsurvivable. And in the end it is also our faith that allows us to accept in the end no matter what there is more beyond the joys and pains of this existence even while we do everything we must do to survive. This is not the end but one small step on the path to a much greater existence. Faith And Five Smooth Stones Text: 1 Sam. 17:45 Read more: alarmandmuster.proboards.com/index.cgi?action=display&board=faith&thread=11418&page=1#52180#ixzz25tBOVKOC
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Sine Pari
Full Member
Titan18series3DBn/75th
Posts: 82
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Post by Sine Pari on Sept 9, 2012 7:34:10 GMT -5
John is right as far as making the AR perform the way he stated I did a Fail Zero job on my AR and my wifes AR. Read below... www.failzero.com/
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