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Post by avordvet on Aug 26, 2012 7:17:27 GMT -5
Secession: Who WILL Be First?by Russell D. Longcore I've been pondering a lot lately about which state it will be that will be the first to secede from the United States of America. For today, let me muse about Texas and Montana. Texas has a vibrant secessionist organization called the Texas Nationalist Movement. Run by dynamic President Daniel Miller and charismatic Membership Director Cary Wise, they have spread the concept of Texas Independence far and wide in the Lone Star state. The TNM is by far the most well-operated and organized independence movement in the nation, and has touched more lives with the message of regaining personal liberty and nationhood than any other group in North America. To my knowledge, Montana has no organized secessionist or independence group. So...you may ask... why pick Montana as a potential secession candidate? Much has been written about The American Redoubt, a Western liberty "reservation" modeled roughly after Galt’s Gulch of the book Atlas Shrugged. The Redoubt could work but it would work best as a new North American nation, not simply a do-over of American government and American culture. So let’s look at some informal observations about each state. dumpdc.wordpress.com/2012/08/25/secession-who-will-be-first/
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Post by hefferman1 on Aug 26, 2012 15:48:50 GMT -5
If one state goes, several will join it, which ever side it is on.
Remember it was a Yankee state that first tried to secede.
Think if Odumba looses, would California, Oregon, Washington, New York, or a N. England State be the first to try and leave the Union.
If they want to go, I will say let them go. All of New England could not feed the city of New York.
California would collapse into Atzland, and be worse than Mexico within 5 years.
I think only the middle, and South of the country stands a chance to secede and be a success. It has industry, Oil, and access to the world through the gulf, and South Eastern sea board.
Think of what the libretards called Jesus Land in 2000. It would have three big oil areas, tons of coal, almost every other mineral, it would have farms, industry, and access to world trade.
If a country grew out of the Midwest, North West, and South it would still be the largest economy in the world, and have resources. It would also be strong enough to defend itself.
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Post by brocktownsend on Aug 26, 2012 17:14:43 GMT -5
If a country grew out of the Midwest, North West, and South it would still be the largest economy in the world, and have resources. It would also be strong enough to defend itself.
Got my vote.
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Post by busboy on Aug 26, 2012 20:58:26 GMT -5
No state will secede from the union, there is no reason to, and no benefit in doing so.
All of the talk of such action is merely to distract patriots from taking care of the important business of running the country and getting things fixed Constitutionally.
To gather enough support within a state to approve some sort of secession resolution, would mean to surpass the number of people it would take to support a Constitutional means of restricting federal encroachments.
If the Constitutional means are taken up by several of the states, and the success of these actions are observed by other states, the process/movement will grow rapidly. However, a state which declares it is seceding will come under very harsh attack by both the feds and most of the other states. That effort will be squashed nearly instantly.
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Post by avordvet on Aug 27, 2012 3:43:55 GMT -5
No state will secede from the union, there is no reason to, and no benefit in doing so. You have got to be kidding me? No benefit in doing so? Now that's a serious stretch of credibility. No benefit except the Re-founding of Liberty, Freedom and Economic viability. If there was no benifit, the movement would not be growing year by year. As mentioned before, the Constitution is not a suicide pact, and the founders made that VERY clear. Secession is just like the Second Amendment... Another tool on the table to avoid living under tyranny.
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Post by busboy on Aug 27, 2012 7:16:02 GMT -5
OK, a state legislature passes a resolution, and a governor signs, a secession resolution/law, or whatever form you want to call it.
Now what? So many folks think that this is the end, and all is peaches and cream from then on out. Freedom and Liberty abound, and a rabbit in every pot.
First, the federal government will declare the action invalid, and will likely move in troops to quell the "illegal insurrection". This will be done by the take over of the Capitol, the arrest of the elected representatives and suspension of elected representation in that state.
Funds will be halted to that state. The ability to conduct commerce will cease with no bank in the world willing to touch anything to do with that state. All mortgages, commercial/private loans ceased, all transportation cut off, all communications cut off.
If they have sea access, likely a blockade. If they desire air access, they will have to have permission from the US federal government to get that.
Any such attempt would be starved in less than 2 weeks, of any and all resources. No other state would "come to their rescue", because there are few states which are silly enough to even consider such folly, let alone be dragged into such folly by another state legislature. The financial/commerce disruption this would cause in the other states would bring a nation wide cry to "do something", to the federal government.
And all of this is going to be willingly endured by the People of that state? A week without transportation, and you have nearly every grocery store in the state empty. You have people who can not get "home" to that state, from others, you have folks who want to leave who may not be allowed to.
At best, you might have a very small percentage of "insurgents" who will put up a fight, but with no support, no real communication, and scant resources, they would be quickly eliminated.
It is simply fantasy to think that a state can declare itself "free" from the United States, and expect to waltz into some state of existence which allows it to prosper and flourish in the light of Freedom and Liberty.
Further, it is extremely short sighted, and pigeon holed thinking which sees secession offers benefits which the state can not already exercise for Freedom and Liberty under the Constitution. If there were the numbers of supporters within a state, which would allow for the passage of a secession resolution, then this number would have much earlier surpassed the number of people needed to support Constitutional means of securing Constitutional resolutions to secure Freedom and Liberty within that state.
There are a hell of a lot more people who will support Constitutional actions such as Jury Nullification, State nullification, and state restrictions on federal usurpation of power, than will support secession and essentially declaration of war against the rest of the country. It is much easier to gain support for these actions that it would ever be for a secession movement.
Also, there are already many states engaged in such Constitutional actions, and these states are already cooperating and coordinating in these actions. It is already a multi-front assault upon the federal governments usurpations.
Make all the pie in the sky assertions about how blissful secession will be, but the cold hard facts are extremely harsh, and would not lead to Freedom and Liberty, but rather to being a conquered people in a condition of being in an occupation state, rather than a free state.
Again, the discussion of this "option" is merely an attempt to distract patriots from the real measures which must be taken to fix the country. Those who desire more power and control love secession talk among the patriot groups, and even on a state level, as the energies expended there detract from the efforts which could have real and lasting effects on their desires.
And if by some outside chance some state actually takes such an action, they have the perfect excuse to righteously use brutal force to crush and make an example of them. Unlike in the 1860s, when there was little real US military, and it took months to set up for action, the military would be deployed in a rebellious state within minutes of such a declaration and the results would be brutally swift.
We have in this country, a condition where most people are not even engaged in the political processes of the government. The people are not doing what needs to be done to ensure the government stays within its Constitutional bounds, but yet there are some who think they can garner enough support from this same population for an action as dire and radical as secession? It is fantasy talk, at best, but most likely a planted distraction, a gift from the very forces which the "secessionist" wish to get away from.
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Post by midnightrider on Aug 27, 2012 7:33:59 GMT -5
We have in this country, a condition where most people are not even engaged in the political processes of the government. The people are not doing what needs to be done to ensure the government stays within its Constitutional bounds, but yet there are some who think they can garner enough support from this same population for an action as dire and radical as secession?
So they (the sheeple) will not do what needs to be done "engaged in the political processes of the government." what makes you think the political process will be the answer? It is proving itself to be true even as I write this.
And NOBODY said that succession will be easy. It is easier to just say that the political process is working while we sit back and keep eating shit that comes out of our political process. Extreme times require extreme measures. We do need to understand how to restore the Constitutional principles after the collapse. Also the Constitution was written for a morale society. Our present day leadership has NO idea of this concept, R or D. How long do we murder the unborn. This comes up every 4 yrs. and what changes have been made in how many years. The present day system DOES NOT WORK! Rant off.
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Post by safetalker on Aug 27, 2012 8:37:03 GMT -5
Since the Civil war nearly every state in the nation has enacted Constitutional Amendments that prohibit secession. The only way to get the beast off our back is for "We the People" to step up and reorganize under the Declaration of Independence. No Johnny there will be no white knights on great steeds. It is up to us.
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Post by busboy on Aug 27, 2012 9:12:44 GMT -5
" So they (the sheeple) will not do what needs to be done "engaged in the political processes of the government." what makes you think the political process will be the answer?" The simple fact that the political processes are gaining momentum and effectiveness. The "sheeple" will not abandon these successes for the folly of secession. " Our present day leadership has NO idea of this concept, R or D. How long do we murder the unborn. This comes up every 4 yrs. and what changes have been made in how many years. The present day system DOES NOT WORK! " And this statement illustrates the major problem we have in this county, everyone is looking to D.C. for the "answers". The "system" does not work, because "We the People" are not working the system as per the operator's manual. We want to get the "quick fix" by getting "the right man" in the oval office so he can dictate a Constitutional Republic back into existence. When we don't get our "dream candidate" in the office, we whine and rattle our sabers with the cry of "secession". Hell of a lot easier to do that than actually operate the country. Over and over, folks seem to want to step over the obvious and easy (relatively) for the ludicrous and most difficult. If the 'sheeple' won't stand up for application of the Constitutional principles now, then why in the world would any think they can get them to do so after some devastating and bloody civil war? I have posted many examples of positive progression on the road to returning the country to the Constitutional foundations, here: alarmandmuster.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=general&action=display&thread=10921 These efforts are being effective and being so with a very small number of people advancing them. If there were anywhere near the number of people required to pull of a secession movement, they would be able to apply the above tools much more effectively and successfully. There is no solution in secession. It is very unrealistic to think so. The hearts and minds of the people need to be in the frame of wanting Freedom and Liberty, of wanting a restoration of the Constitutional principles, before such a restoration can be accomplished. If this change in the hearts and minds of our fellow countrymen is required, then why not work to effect that while it is still possible (and being effective) in a peaceful manner? The hearts and minds have to impacted regardless of the perceived path to the restoration of the Republic. Doing it now, peacefully, will most likely ensure maximum participation, and most likely stave off any necessity for civil war and/or secession. The process of reestablishing some sort of new republic after a state, or several, secede gets us right back to where we are today (or more likely worse off). We would need a majority of the people within those states to WANT Freedom and Liberty AND be active in the setting up and conduct of such a government. There is no way that a group of modern Americans can establish a system of government better than what we have today, so the question must be asked, why not use the one we have today? If we can't make the changes in this country to utilize what is already in place, there is NO HOPE to destroy what we have, then rebuild it better.
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Post by midnightrider on Aug 27, 2012 9:40:41 GMT -5
I do not drink the kool-aid.
2/3 of the so called tea party candidates were co-opted within the first month
of there so called service.
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Post by Michael Downing on Aug 27, 2012 11:49:04 GMT -5
I for one believe that secession or more likely a breakup of the existing union is inevitable. I see no hope what so ever in the short term if ever in changing the course directed out of the Leviathan on the Potomac and I certainly do not look to them for an answer. Because of the inability of the general government and the majority of the American people to admit that our path is unsustainable and make the hard choices that would be required to turn the tide then the only thing I see as inevitable is a coming economic collapse. I have heard many say it can't happen here and we are not Greece. They are wrong...
If the government checks do not go out riots in the streets will be the least of our problems. Everyone is willing to see someone else's piece of the pie cut or someone else pay more of their fair share as long as it is not them. The day of reckoning is coming and we may delay it for another period of time but we will not stop the inevitable. I am not the only one who believes so. Why do you think DHS and other government agencies have stocked up on weapons and so damn much ammo? Why has the military made contingency plans for aiding in civil control and containment? Why has the National Guard been instructed and trained on controlling riots and civil control? It is because "they", The Powers That Be, believe it is coming as well. We can debate whether "they" want it to come or just know they cannot stop it but in the end it will matter little. The die is cast.
Now back to secession or disunification, that will be the natural outcome when things begin to collapse and yes the people will at that time embrace it. The first reaction will be shock and then they will look for the "government help" that they always believed would be there but it does not come because "they" will be more concerned with themselves than the people. Then the people will embrace a smaller locally centralized form of leadership and disunification will occur.
This I believe is far more likely than a small incremental return to a large constitutional republic something the people have clearly shown through their actions and the leaders they have "chosen" clearly do not embrace. And I believe the Powers to be think such and event is very likely indeed and they are getting prepared for it. Are you???
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Post by Cujo on Aug 27, 2012 13:13:53 GMT -5
Well said Mike...
Two problems come to mind.
One- When I talk of the real issues that the news media refuses to discuss with a family member he get all nervous & puts his blinders on to the truth. He can't understand that the attacks on the Constitution is a major concern with many of us. Why can't we just vote for Mitt & be done with it. Why do you have to question the Constitutionality loyalty of the Republican Party. What's that saying, "To get along just go along!"
To many don't question, they just go along.
Two- Again from family members, they are good Republicans in they're minds. The TSA, they don't mind being felt up, or they don't mind about all the unlawful surveillance, they don't mind so why should I care what happens to them?
The answer is simple, "If we stand by & allow them to violate your Rights, we will be allowing them to violate our Rights". People just don't get it.
Busboy is right in one aspect, if people are not involved now why would they be involved in re-establishing the Republic? Most likely they won't, it will be a small percentage just as it was in the Revolutionary war.
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Post by brocktownsend on Aug 27, 2012 13:30:00 GMT -5
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Post by hefferman1 on Aug 27, 2012 13:50:33 GMT -5
Well said Mike... Two problems come to mind. One- When I talk of the real issues that the news media refuses to discuss with a family member he get all nervous & puts his blinders on to the truth. He can't understand that the attacks on the Constitution is a major concern with many of us. Why can't we just vote for Mitt & be done with it. Why do you have to question the Constitutionality loyalty of the Republican Party. What's that saying, "To get along just go along!" To many don't question, they just go along. Two- Again from family members, they are good Republicans in they're minds. The TSA, they don't mind being felt up, or they don't mind about all the unlawful surveillance, they don't mind so why should I care what happens to them? The answer is simple, "If we stand by & allow them to violate your Rights, we will be allowing them to violate our Rights". People just don't get it. Busboy is right in one aspect, if people are not involved now why would they be involved in re-establishing the Republic? Most likely they won't, it will be a small percentage just as it was in the Revolutionary war. How many of them will become very involved, very quickly when the checks stop, and the cities are on fire? Remember Watts? Remember the LA Riots? Now think of 20+ cities looking like that, many people will become involved very quickly. The question is what will they do. Many will scream for someone to save them, and gladly give up their Inalienable Rights to do so. Others will stand up and defend themselves, and others. We could fall into a situation where the communist attempt to take over, like they have in country after country. Now for the most important question. What will you do? Where will you stand? Are you prepared to make that stand, mentally, physically, and spiritually?
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Post by hefferman1 on Aug 27, 2012 13:58:31 GMT -5
I have noticed it is the same ones who think there is some magical way to fix things, are the same ones who belittle people for talking about standing up against what is coming.
If you don't have the cojunes to get ready now, I don't expect you to grow them when things are bad.
If you are a divider now, I expect you to be a divider then.
Instead of tearing everyone down, how about growing up, and working toward a solution now, or preparing for one in the future.
Some of you have acted like men for years. I expect you to keep acting like men. Others need to take a good long look at themselves, and decide if they will be grown men, or not.
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Post by avordvet on Aug 27, 2012 14:05:05 GMT -5
I have noticed it is the same ones who think there is some magical way to fix things, are the same ones who belittle people for talking about standing up against what is coming. If you don't have the cojunes to get ready now, I don't expect you to grow them when things are bad. If you are a divider now, I expect you to be a divider then. Instead of tearing everyone down, how about growing up, and working toward a solution now, or preparing for one in the future. Some of you have acted like men for years. I expect you to keep acting like men. Others need to take a good long look at themselves, and decide if they will be grown men, or not. Yup
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Post by Michael Downing on Aug 27, 2012 14:08:20 GMT -5
Busboy is right in one aspect, if people are not involved now why would they be involved in re-establishing the Republic? Most likely they won't, it will be a small percentage just as it was in the Revolutionary war.
Busboy is right about alot of things and I would not argue that and although I see a different path ahead for us all I am doing what I can today to make the present and the future a better place. As I said and I believe Hef said as well: if a collapse comes real quick people will get inviolved or not survive. Like my wife said to me last week it seems like today that for the most part there are victims being hunted by predators and she does not plan on being a victim. The better prepared we are and the firmer we are in our faith the better we will be able to shape the future no matter what comes.
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Post by busboy on Aug 27, 2012 14:23:28 GMT -5
" The very act of secession demands that we stop thinking like Americans and begin thinking like free men and women who will no longer accept a life under tyranny and slavery. "
This is the same "new thinking" that is required for this country to turn around, via the Constitutional means, of reestablishing the Constitutional barriers to federal power usurpation.
"Secession will require allegiance to our state, soon to become our new nation. And that commitment will first be exhibited in a commitment to each other as individuals who yearn to be free to govern ourselves as we see fit.
Governing after secession is also a paradigmatic and drastic change from conventional thinking and understanding about governance. "
Again, this is directly in line with the separation of powers between the federal and state governments. To get to secession, we MUST go through this process anyways.
"1. Personal liberty is greatest where there is the least amount of government. So documents like the Articles of Confederation and the US Constitution are anachronistic and irrelevant for a new nation. Now…happily…excitedly… perhaps we can stop believing that the constitutional republic is the greatest form of human governance. An unrestrained republic is what got America into the shape it’s in right now. "
Here is the crux to many people's views of secession, those who are supporters of such action. It is NOT preservation or restoration of American Freedom and Liberty, but rather a new revolution to install some false notion of freedom.
The false premise which is asserted in the quote just above is that the Constitution has implemented an "unrestrained republic". In fact, the federalism which is instituted in the Constitution, the separation of powers vertically from the people, through their states, to the federal government, is what has broken down. Re-establishing this Constitutional balance is the solution, not abandoning it.
There is no way a "new system" will prove better than our current. Can anyone give us an example of a government anywhere in the world, since 1788, where a government has been set up which has provided for as much Freedom and Liberty for a population? And why in the world would anyone think that a modern American attempt to do so would fare any better?
The rest of this article is just fraught with pie in the sky thinking, very short on details and reality. It is sad that this is the "information" which is being used to distract people from the reality of our condition in this country.
" Remember, under a Corporate Model of Governance, every citizen could vote on every issue, and that would naturally include any tax rate increase or addition of the scope of governance."
This is just simply a popular democracy, which of course would devolve, very quickly, to mobocracy.
The author falsely claims that this "corporate model" has been working in various mega corporations, but he is mistaken. The "board of directors" is who selects the CEO and other corporate leaders of a corp. These leaders are entrusted with various authorities and responsibilities, and allowed to conduct themselves as they deem prudent.
If you own a share of stock, you don't get to vote on if the corp should drill a well, R&D a product, engage in marketing, or stop services. You get to vote for board of directors, you don't even get to vote for the CEO, in most cases.
Tell ya, the more I wade into this hog wash, the even more obvious it becomes that there is not enough "think through the details" of such a foolish move.
The emperor of "secession" has no clothes folks, it is a ruse which is being used to snooker folks from seeking real fixes. "You all keep dreaming of secession, so we can continue to subvert the Constitution..."
It is a revolution which being discussed via this "secession" talk, you all realize this right? And you think you are going to get a majority of the people, of any state, or of the country to go along with it? Not a snowball's chance of that happening.
Place your comment on Russell's site. I'm sure he will be more than happy to reply.
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Post by avordvet on Aug 27, 2012 14:44:43 GMT -5
Still thinking out of the box... The Secession Paradigmby Russell D. Longcore Secession is the new paradigm for personal liberty and property rights on the North American continent. In order for secession to be successful, it will require that each of us think on an entirely new level than we have ever thought before. Why? Because living in a 50-state nation is very different from living in a single nation with counties. dumpdc.wordpress.com/2012/08/27/the-secession-paradigm/
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Post by avordvet on Aug 27, 2012 14:51:10 GMT -5
Tempting but InsaneShould the South just be its own country?By Colin Woodard Better Off Without 'Em: A Northern Manifesto for Southern Secession by Chuck Thompson Simon and Schuster, 336 pp. What sets Thompson apart is his bold assertion that Uncle Sam should hack off his gangrenous right leg before the infection spreads any further. Most southerners, he suspects, "really just want the same thing I do: a country liberated from the tyranny of Mormons and seditionists, and the freedom to say about the other side, in all honesty and with complete accuracy, that we might be better off without 'em."
Letting the South secede, he argues, would be best for everyone. "Freed from its standing as a hind tit, guilt-by-association international embarrassment to the rest of the country, the politically repressive religious monarchy of the born-again Confederacy would be transformed overnight into a travel destination swarming with trendsetting elites," Thompson, author of comedic travelogues To Hellholes and Back and Smile When You’re Lying, writes at the outset. "Lonely Planet types from around the world would immediately embrace the South as... an indigenous society teeming with underappreciated folk wisdom, ancient values, and fascinating dialects deserving of fierce protection and a slew of new expat-financed eco-lodges." It would be another Mexico, in other words, "only with an even weaker currency and more corrupt government."www.washingtonmonthly.com/magazine/julyaugust_2012/on_political_books/tempting_but_insane038425.php
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