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Post by avordvet on Oct 8, 2009 5:40:33 GMT -5
Give Me Liberty Or Give Me Death
Patrick Henry, March 23, 1775.
No man thinks more highly than I do of the patriotism, as well as abilities, of the very worthy gentlemen who have just addressed the House. But different men often see the same subject in different lights; and, therefore, I hope it will not be thought disrespectful to those gentlemen if, entertaining as I do opinions of a character very opposite to theirs, I shall speak forth my sentiments freely and without reserve. This is no time for ceremony. The questing before the House is one of awful moment to this country. For my own part, I consider it as nothing less than a question of freedom or slavery; and in proportion to the magnitude of the subject ought to be the freedom of the debate. It is only in this way that we can hope to arrive at truth, and fulfill the great responsibility which we hold to God and our country. Should I keep back my opinions at such a time, through fear of giving offense, I should consider myself as guilty of treason towards my country, and of an act of disloyalty toward the Majesty of Heaven, which I revere above all earthly kings.
Mr. President, it is natural to man to indulge in the illusions of hope. We are apt to shut our eyes against a painful truth, and listen to the song of that siren till she transforms us into beasts. Is this the part of wise men, engaged in a great and arduous struggle for liberty? Are we disposed to be of the number of those who, having eyes, see not, and, having ears, hear not, the things which so nearly concern their temporal salvation? For my part, whatever anguish of spirit it may cost, I am willing to know the whole truth; to know the worst, and to provide for it.
I have but one lamp by which my feet are guided, and that is the lamp of experience. I know of no way of judging of the future but by the past. And judging by the past, I wish to know what there has been in the conduct of the British ministry for the last ten years to justify those hopes with which gentlemen have been pleased to solace themselves and the House. Is it that insidious smile with which our petition has been lately received? Trust it not, sir; it will prove a snare to your feet. Suffer not yourselves to be betrayed with a kiss. Ask yourselves how this gracious reception of our petition comports with those warlike preparations which cover our waters and darken our land. Are fleets and armies necessary to a work of love and reconciliation? Have we shown ourselves so unwilling to be reconciled that force must be called in to win back our love? Let us not deceive ourselves, sir. These are the implements of war and subjugation; the last arguments to which kings resort. I ask gentlemen, sir, what means this martial array, if its purpose be not to force us to submission? Can gentlemen assign any other possible motive for it? Has Great Britain any enemy, in this quarter of the world, to call for all this accumulation of navies and armies? No, sir, she has none. They are meant for us: they can be meant for no other. They are sent over to bind and rivet upon us those chains which the British ministry have been so long forging. And what have we to oppose to them? Shall we try argument? Sir, we have been trying that for the last ten years. Have we anything new to offer upon the subject? Nothing. We have held the subject up in every light of which it is capable; but it has been all in vain. Shall we resort to entreaty and humble supplication? What terms shall we find which have not been already exhausted? Let us not, I beseech you, sir, deceive ourselves. Sir, we have done everything that could be done to avert the storm which is now coming on. We have petitioned; we have remonstrated; we have supplicated; we have prostrated ourselves before the throne, and have implored its interposition to arrest the tyrannical hands of the ministry and Parliament. Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!
They tell us, sir, that we are weak; unable to cope with so formidable an adversary. But when shall we be stronger? Will it be the next week, or the next year? Will it be when we are totally disarmed, and when a British guard shall be stationed in every house? Shall we gather strength by irresolution and inaction? Shall we acquire the means of effectual resistance by lying supinely on our backs and hugging the delusive phantom of hope, until our enemies shall have bound us hand and foot? Sir, we are not weak if we make a proper use of those means which the God of nature hath placed in our power. The millions of people, armed in the holy cause of liberty, and in such a country as that which we possess, are invincible by any force which our enemy can send against us. Besides, sir, we shall not fight our battles alone. There is a just God who presides over the destinies of nations, and who will raise up friends to fight our battles for us. The battle, sir, is not to the strong alone; it is to the vigilant, the active, the brave. Besides, sir, we have no election. If we were base enough to desire it, it is now too late to retire from the contest. There is no retreat but in submission and slavery! Our chains are forged! Their clanking may be heard on the plains of Boston! The war is inevitable--and let it come! I repeat it, sir, let it come.
It is in vain, sir, to extenuate the matter. Gentlemen may cry, Peace, Peace-- but there is no peace. The war is actually begun! The next gale that sweeps from the north will bring to our ears the clash of resounding arms! Our brethren are already in the field! Why stand we here idle? What is it that gentlemen wish? What would they have? Is life so dear, or peace so sweet, as to be purchased at the price of chains and slavery? Forbid it, Almighty God! I know not what course others may take; but as for me, give me liberty or give me death!
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Post by NCFREEDOM on Oct 8, 2009 6:03:41 GMT -5
Everytime I read his speech I am reminded of the courage and eloquence in speech our founders had. This speech should swell your spirit of patriotism everytime you read it. It if doesn't you need to look deep into your own self to determine if you are truely on the right side of freedom! In my opinion.
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Post by brocktownsend on Oct 8, 2009 11:41:34 GMT -5
" Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!"
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"If I have a superstition, sir, which governs my mind and holds it captive, it is a superstitious reverence for the Union. If one can inherit a sentiment, I may be said to have inherited this from my revolutionary father.
And if education can develop a sentiment in the heart and mind of man, surely mine has been such as would most develop feelings of attachment for the Union. But, sir, I have an allegiance to the State, which I represent here. I have an allegiance to those who have entrusted their interests to me, which every consideration of faith and of duty, which every feeling of honor, tells me is above all other political considerations. I trust I shall never find my allegiance there and here in conflict.
God forbid that the day should ever come when to be true to my constituents is to be hostile to the Union. If, sir, we have reached that hour in the progress of our institutions, it is past the age to which the Union should have lived. If we have got to the point when it is treason to the United States to protect the rights and interests of our constituents, I ask why should they longer be represented here? Why longer remain a part of the Union?"
The Honorable Jefferson Davis of Mississippi Excerpt from his speech in 1850 on the floor of the US Senate
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Post by 2ncrca on Oct 8, 2009 11:56:53 GMT -5
Words as true today as when they were first uttered. Our government no longer respects the rights of the individual as they hide behind the power of authority to impose, even on the faceless masses they deceitfully claim to support, a heavy and potentially brutal totalitarian oligarchy.
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Post by jerome on Oct 8, 2009 19:49:23 GMT -5
Everytime i read speaches that deal with either the reasons/lead up to the founding of this country and the 'REAL" reasons for the south leaving the union I have one quote that runs through my head: "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Every time I read political news or commentary I start to think that we are about to see history repeat itself yet again. I pray I am wrong, I hope we don't have to resort to the path laid out in the dec. of independence and the 2nd amendment but it's hard to see any other option that we haven't been trying. I've heard people complain that we haven't tried following the peaceful solution but that's a lie. We've been trying it since the start of the civil war (which started as the south leaving in PEACE to be attacked by tyrants). We've also tried the peaceful solution of voting out the bad politicians just to be trapped in the broken 2 party system. That gave us Clinton, who we followed with Bush, and now Obama. The reason i say the system is broken is because 99% of the people out there either vote party line or when they get mad at one party they vote for the other regardless of what the people they vote for believe.
I say to give the peaceful solution a little more time. Once they move to a point of no return (amnesty, gun bans/confiscations/registration, unilateral nuclear disarming, etc...) it will be time to resort to whatever we have to but for Gods sake people quit saying we haven't tried the path of peace because we have. It's the path that is leading us to chains!
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Post by brocktownsend on Oct 8, 2009 19:57:17 GMT -5
Everytime i read speaches that deal with either the reasons/lead up to the founding of this country and the 'REAL" reasons for the south leaving the union I have one quote that runs through my head: "Those who do not learn from history are doomed to repeat it." Every time I read political news or commentary I start to think that we are about to see history repeat itself yet again. I pray I am wrong, I hope we don't have to resort to the path laid out in the dec. of independence and the 2nd amendment but it's hard to see any other option that we haven't been trying. I've heard people complain that we haven't tried following the peaceful solution but that's a lie. We've been trying it since the start of the civil war (which started as the south leaving in PEACE to be attacked by tyrants). We've also tried the peaceful solution of voting out the bad politicians just to be trapped in the broken 2 party system. That gave us Clinton, who we followed with Bush, and now Obama. The reason i say the system is broken is because 99% of the people out there either vote party line or when they get mad at one party they vote for the other regardless of what the people they vote for believe. I say to give the peaceful solution a little more time. Once they move to a point of no return (amnesty, gun bans/confiscations/registration, unilateral nuclear disarming, etc...) it will be time to resort to whatever we have to but for Gods sake people quit saying we haven't tried the path of peace because we have. It's the path that is leading us to chains! www.namsouth.com/viewtopic.php?t=75&highlight=quotes7. "To be ignorant of what occurred before you were born is to remain always a child. For what is the worth of human life, unless it is woven into the life of our ancestors by the records of history?" Marcus Tullius Cicero, 106 B.C.-43 B.C. 12. "I love the Union and the Constitution,but I would rather leave the Union with the Constitution than remain in the Union without it.'' President Jefferson Davis www.namsouth.com/viewtopic.php?t=2978&highlight=davisTruth crushed to the earth is truth still and like a seed will rise again. ---Jefferson Davis (1808 - 1889) "The contest is not over, the strife is not ended. It has only entered upon a new and enlarged arena. ---Address to the Mississippi legislature - 16 years after the wars end. "The principle for which we contend is bound to reassert itself, though it may be at another time and in another form."
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Post by NCFREEDOM on Oct 8, 2009 20:11:39 GMT -5
My belief is that the task of restoration of the republic past a long time ago. The more involved I become, the more I read and watch, it can not be accomplished in our current state. The civility of discourse no longer exists. I feel there are two options for escape, one is complete governmental collapse or a seccessionist movement.
The second is probably the less violent but thats just an opinion. Pat Buchanan wrote an article last month stating that if the US was a married couple we would have already divorced. As sad as it is to say, it may be time to part ways this time for good. How that happens, can it happen? I do not know but dividing the country into parts may be the only way to save the republic.
Take the bill of rights with us, strengthen it so no one can ever usurp it again. Return to a gold and silver standard, add an amendment that prevents a central bank, place strict term limits on representatives and senators, a fair tax where success is not punished for a start. The experiment was not flawed, it was only messed with by othrs adding their ingrediatants over the last 230+ years. Let the other side have their welfare, oppression, high taxes, nanny state communism. Lets see who prospers, those under oppression or those with freedoms!
I can't actually believe I have suggested something like this, never in my life would I have felt that this country would crumble under the stupidity, ignorance and corruption of its leaders and people.
We should mourn for her!
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Post by brocktownsend on Oct 8, 2009 20:19:14 GMT -5
Well said.
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Post by 2ncrca on Oct 8, 2009 20:36:10 GMT -5
My belief is that the task of restoration of the republic past a long time ago. The more involved I become, the more I read and watch, it can not be accomplished in our current state. The civility of discourse no longer exists. I feel there are two options for escape, one is complete governmental collapse or a seccessionist movement. The second is probably the less violent but thats just an opinion. Pat Buchanan wrote an article last month stating that if the US was a married couple we would have already divorced. As sad as it is to say, it may be time to part ways this time for good. How that happens, can it happen? I do not know but dividing the country into parts may be the only way to save the republic. Take the bill of rights with us, strengthen it so no one can ever usurp it again. Return to a gold and silver standard, add an amendment that prevents a central bank, place strict term limits on representatives and senators, a fair tax where success is not punished for a start. The experiment was not flawed, it was only messed with by othrs adding their ingrediatants over the last 230+ years. Let the other side have their welfare, oppression, high taxes, nanny state communism. Lets see who prospers, those under oppression or those with freedoms! I can't actually believe I have suggested something like this, never in my life would I have felt that this country would crumble under the stupidity, ignorance and corruption of its leaders and people. We should mourn for her! Tyrants being what they are they will not be satisfied unless they have everything including those who choose to live in freedom. The only way I see matters ending in long term peace is to choose the final showdown. Take Hugo Chavez who is scheming with the communist rebels in Columbia as well as other South and Central American nations. Fidel Castro began his schemes of communist subversives around Central America and island nations. Communism has all the characteristics of a crusade the worldwide liberation of the proletariat and that is what we are dealing with.
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Post by jerome on Oct 8, 2009 21:22:53 GMT -5
My belief is that the task of restoration of the republic past a long time ago. The more involved I become, the more I read and watch, it can not be accomplished in our current state. The civility of discourse no longer exists. I feel there are two options for escape, one is complete governmental collapse or a seccessionist movement. The second is probably the less violent but thats just an opinion. Pat Buchanan wrote an article last month stating that if the US was a married couple we would have already divorced. As sad as it is to say, it may be time to part ways this time for good. How that happens, can it happen? I do not know but dividing the country into parts may be the only way to save the republic. Take the bill of rights with us, strengthen it so no one can ever usurp it again. Return to a gold and silver standard, add an amendment that prevents a central bank, place strict term limits on representatives and senators, a fair tax where success is not punished for a start. The experiment was not flawed, it was only messed with by othrs adding their ingrediatants over the last 230+ years. Let the other side have their welfare, oppression, high taxes, nanny state communism. Lets see who prospers, those under oppression or those with freedoms! I can't actually believe I have suggested something like this, never in my life would I have felt that this country would crumble under the stupidity, ignorance and corruption of its leaders and people. We should mourn for her! [start rant] We tried the "peaceful" seccesion before. It resulted in the bloodiest war we've ever had with 600,000+ dead. Why are we to believe that this time will be any different? Granted, liberals always try to make an excuse to end a war with retreat (which might help us) but they hate everything we stand for so much that i believe that this is the only war they wouldn't quit on. It has gotten to the point where our government is afraid of us (as it should be since one of our founders said a good gov fear it's people and in a bad one it's people fear it) but they don't understand the reason for our position. Sounds familiar doesn't it? The North feared the loss of the south and started a war to subject us to their will while blaming the whole thing on slavery. This time the war (which is coming unless our government changes course) will be blamed on racism. The first war was fought over self-determination and states rights. This one will be fought by our side for the same reasons. If we win history will be taught with that in mind, if we lose then history will show that the war was fought because we are racists. I'll ask it again in another way: Is there ANY reason for us to think that a government that WILL NOT allow a state to prevent illegals crossing into america through it's borders, will not allow states to opt out of federal guidelines on guns made and sold in state through the 10th amendment, will not allow people to buy insurance from the state of their choice if they don't live there, will not enforce our laws as written actually going to let about 1/2 the states in this country to leave and set up a country of their own in peace? The pattern of abuse by our government (on both sides, republican and democrat) is clear for anyone to see. These people have developed a taste for power (more like an addiction) and any action that the people take to restore power to the people, either through peaceful means (ie tea party protests, and letters to congress critters) or through seccession will be met with the full might and force of the federal government to prevent the loss of power. I'm not saying this as a reason to submit, I know what tools the government has, I'm saying this so that it is plain to all what will happen once states start breaking away. I love this country as much as anyone ever has, I know our history (the real one, not the revisionist crap taught in schools) and even with the flaws we have I love it still. I don't want it broken apart and I damn sure don't want it remade into the image that is floating around in chairman obama's crooked little mind. If I have to fight to keep this country what it was founded to be then so be it. When the day comes I know what the government will say about me and anyone who stands with me. I also know what my friends and family will say about us. The government will call us traitors, our friends will call us patriots. My view is that fortune favors the bold: LIVE FREE OR DIE!!![end rant]
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Post by brocktownsend on Oct 8, 2009 21:26:10 GMT -5
You can repeat that rant anytime!
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Post by Michael Downing on Oct 8, 2009 21:32:51 GMT -5
The government will call us traitors, our friends will call us patriots. My view is that fortune favors the bold: LIVE FREE OR DIE!!!
History is written by those who win so I suggest we win and that is all I have to say about that. Rant on...
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Post by jerome on Oct 8, 2009 21:35:18 GMT -5
I didn't start that out to be a rant. Once I finished reading it I went back and added the [start rant] [end rant] things. It's just that I am so fed up with the way our side has been portrayed (including what has been said about the South ever since the civil war) that once I started going I couldn't stop until I got the whole train of thought out there. I know I am not the best writer out there (hell, I had to go back and edit it twice to correct for spelling and a couple of words I left out) but I think it gets my point across rather nicely.
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Post by brocktownsend on Oct 8, 2009 21:35:21 GMT -5
The government will call us traitors, our friends will call us patriots. My view is that fortune favors the bold: LIVE FREE OR DIE!!! History is written by those who win so I suggest we win and that is all I have to say about that. Rant on... Yes, Walter Williams states he wants to try and even the one we lost before!
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Post by 2ncrca on Oct 8, 2009 21:37:12 GMT -5
My belief is that the task of restoration of the republic past a long time ago. The more involved I become, the more I read and watch, it can not be accomplished in our current state. The civility of discourse no longer exists. I feel there are two options for escape, one is complete governmental collapse or a seccessionist movement. The second is probably the less violent but thats just an opinion. Pat Buchanan wrote an article last month stating that if the US was a married couple we would have already divorced. As sad as it is to say, it may be time to part ways this time for good. How that happens, can it happen? I do not know but dividing the country into parts may be the only way to save the republic. Take the bill of rights with us, strengthen it so no one can ever usurp it again. Return to a gold and silver standard, add an amendment that prevents a central bank, place strict term limits on representatives and senators, a fair tax where success is not punished for a start. The experiment was not flawed, it was only messed with by othrs adding their ingrediatants over the last 230+ years. Let the other side have their welfare, oppression, high taxes, nanny state communism. Lets see who prospers, those under oppression or those with freedoms! I can't actually believe I have suggested something like this, never in my life would I have felt that this country would crumble under the stupidity, ignorance and corruption of its leaders and people. We should mourn for her! [start rant] We tried the "peaceful" seccesion before. It resulted in the bloodiest war we've ever had with 600,000+ dead. Why are we to believe that this time will be any different? Granted, liberals always try to make an excuse to end a war with retreat (which might help us) but they hate everything we stand for so much that i believe that this is the only war they wouldn't quit on. It has gotten to the point where our government is afraid of us (as it should be since one of our founders said a good gov fear it's people and in a bad one it's people fear it) but they don't understand the reason for our position. Sounds familiar doesn't it? The North feared the loss of the south and started a war to subject us to their will while blaming the whole thing on slavery. This time the war (which is coming unless our government changes course) will be blamed on racism. The first war was fought over self-determination and states rights. This one will be fought by our side for the same reasons. If we win history will be taught with that in mind, if we lose then history will show that the war was fought because we are racists. I'll ask it again in another way: Is there ANY reason for us to think that a government that WILL NOT allow a state to prevent illegals crossing into america through it's borders, will not allow states to opt out of federal guidelines on guns made and sold in state through the 10th amendment, will not allow people to buy insurance from the state of their choice if they don't live there, will not enforce our laws as written actually going to let about 1/2 the states in this country to leave and set up a country of their own in peace? The pattern of abuse by our government (on both sides, republican and democrat) is clear for anyone to see. These people have developed a taste for power (more like an addiction) and any action that the people take to restore power to the people, either through peaceful means (ie tea party protests, and letters to congress critters) or through seccession will be met with the full might and force of the federal government to prevent the loss of power. I'm not saying this as a reason to submit, I know what tools the government has, I'm saying this so that it is plain to all what will happen once states start breaking away. I love this country as much as anyone ever has, I know our history (the real one, not the revisionist crap taught in schools) and even with the flaws we have I love it still. I don't want it broken apart and I damn sure don't want it remade into the image that is floating around in chairman obama's crooked little mind. If I have to fight to keep this country what it was founded to be then so be it. When the day comes I know what the government will say about me and anyone who stands with me. I also know what my friends and family will say about us. The government will call us traitors, our friends will call us patriots. My view is that fortune favors the bold: LIVE FREE OR DIE!!![end rant] Peace at any price is not peace. Well stated jerome.
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Post by brocktownsend on Oct 8, 2009 21:37:21 GMT -5
I didn't start that out to be a rant. Once I finished reading it I went back and added the [start rant] [end rant] things. It's just that I am so fed up with the way our side has been portrayed (including what has been said about the South ever since the civil war) that once I started going I couldn't stop until I got the whole train of thought out there. I know I am not the best writer out there (hell, I had to go back and edit it twice to correct for spelling and a couple of words I left out) but I think it gets my point across rather nicely. Very nicely, Sir, and your thoughts are mine, as I imagine many of us here also. This is a refreshing board, I must say.
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Post by jerome on Oct 8, 2009 21:49:18 GMT -5
Yeah, it's nice to come to a place that isn't filled with trolls who call us stupid racist republican hacks for believing in what this country was meant to be. It's also nice to realize that you're not crazy, there actually are other people who see what's coming and they see the same thing you do. The best thing of all is the fact that we can disagree on an issue and it doesn't turn into name calling. Granted we might call an idea or a point stupid but we argue our opinions with reason and logic while saving the insults to fling at those in DC. I don't ever recall seeing this board reacting to people the way some of the other msg boards do (for a good example go check out the msg board on Hannity's website or the msg boards for response's to news articles). Now if we could just get the liberals to learn how to argue using reason instead of emotion.....
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Post by brocktownsend on Oct 8, 2009 21:50:20 GMT -5
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Post by brocktownsend on Oct 8, 2009 21:53:40 GMT -5
Yeah, it's nice to come to a place that isn't filled with trolls who call us stupid racist republican hacks for believing in what this country was meant to be. It's also nice to realize that you're not crazy, there actually are other people who see what's coming and they see the same thing you do. The best thing of all is the fact that we can disagree on an issue and it doesn't turn into name calling. Granted we might call an idea or a point stupid but we argue our opinions with reason and logic while saving the insults to fling at those in DC. I don't ever recall seeing this board reacting to people the way some of the other msg boards do (for a good example go check out the msg board on Hannity's website or the msg boards for response's to news articles). Now if we could just get the liberals to learn how to argue using reason instead of emotion..... You mean actually debate a subject? Surely, you jest, Sir!
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Post by 2ncrca on Oct 8, 2009 22:22:31 GMT -5
[start rant] We tried the "peaceful" seccesion before. It resulted in the bloodiest war we've ever had with 600,000+ dead. Why are we to believe that this time will be any different? Granted, liberals always try to make an excuse to end a war with retreat (which might help us) but they hate everything we stand for so much that i believe that this is the only war they wouldn't quit on. It has gotten to the point where our government is afraid of us (as it should be since one of our founders said a good gov fear it's people and in a bad one it's people fear it) but they don't understand the reason for our position. Sounds familiar doesn't it? The North feared the loss of the south and started a war to subject us to their will while blaming the whole thing on slavery. This time the war (which is coming unless our government changes course) will be blamed on racism. The first war was fought over self-determination and states rights. This one will be fought by our side for the same reasons. If we win history will be taught with that in mind, if we lose then history will show that the war was fought because we are racists. I'll ask it again in another way: Is there ANY reason for us to think that a government that WILL NOT allow a state to prevent illegals crossing into america through it's borders, will not allow states to opt out of federal guidelines on guns made and sold in state through the 10th amendment, will not allow people to buy insurance from the state of their choice if they don't live there, will not enforce our laws as written actually going to let about 1/2 the states in this country to leave and set up a country of their own in peace? The pattern of abuse by our government (on both sides, republican and democrat) is clear for anyone to see. These people have developed a taste for power (more like an addiction) and any action that the people take to restore power to the people, either through peaceful means (ie tea party protests, and letters to congress critters) or through seccession will be met with the full might and force of the federal government to prevent the loss of power. I'm not saying this as a reason to submit, I know what tools the government has, I'm saying this so that it is plain to all what will happen once states start breaking away. I love this country as much as anyone ever has, I know our history (the real one, not the revisionist crap taught in schools) and even with the flaws we have I love it still. I don't want it broken apart and I damn sure don't want it remade into the image that is floating around in chairman obama's crooked little mind. If I have to fight to keep this country what it was founded to be then so be it. When the day comes I know what the government will say about me and anyone who stands with me. I also know what my friends and family will say about us. The government will call us traitors, our friends will call us patriots. My view is that fortune favors the bold: LIVE FREE OR DIE!!![end rant] Peace at any price is not peace. Well stated jerome. NCFREEDOM, I don't believe any of us meant this as a personal attack on your comment. It's just that many of us would take it very hard to see our nation separated into so many smaller states. The whole of our history was to preserve the experiment our forefathers initiated almost two and a half centuries ago and the thought of accepting its failure is quite emotionally charged. It's true that we have stronger sentiments with regard to the rights of states and the individual, but the common thread that holds us together is the government that the founders conceived as a unifying central core though not anything conceived by the current lot of politicians. So there is no malice intended toward your comments. Peace brother.
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Post by brocktownsend on Oct 8, 2009 22:39:01 GMT -5
Well, I do agree with NCFREEDOM, in that I see little hope of keeping this intact unless there is a successful coup. Texas tries to secede? Hussein pulls a Lincoln. We are up against another Tyrant, and I see no bloodless way out other that the aforementioned, unless, by some miracle, there is a huge change in the politicians next year, and considering that Hussein owns the media, it doesn't bode well, though not an impossibility, so I shall persevere, call, and partake in the election cycle until then, to see if I am, hopefully wrong, but if not then, I see a dangerous future.
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Post by hefferman1 on Oct 8, 2009 23:21:03 GMT -5
" Our petitions have been slighted; our remonstrances have produced additional violence and insult; our supplications have been disregarded; and we have been spurned, with contempt, from the foot of the throne! In vain, after these things, may we indulge the fond hope of peace and reconciliation. There is no longer any room for hope. If we wish to be free-- if we mean to preserve inviolate those inestimable privileges for which we have been so long contending--if we mean not basely to abandon the noble struggle in which we have been so long engaged, and which we have pledged ourselves never to abandon until the glorious object of our contest shall be obtained--we must fight! I repeat it, sir, we must fight! An appeal to arms and to the God of hosts is all that is left us!" -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "If I have a superstition, sir, which governs my mind and holds it captive, it is a superstitious reverence for the Union. If one can inherit a sentiment, I may be said to have inherited this from my revolutionary father. And if education can develop a sentiment in the heart and mind of man, surely mine has been such as would most develop feelings of attachment for the Union. But, sir, I have an allegiance to the State, which I represent here. I have an allegiance to those who have entrusted their interests to me, which every consideration of faith and of duty, which every feeling of honor, tells me is above all other political considerations. I trust I shall never find my allegiance there and here in conflict. God forbid that the day should ever come when to be true to my constituents is to be hostile to the Union. If, sir, we have reached that hour in the progress of our institutions, it is past the age to which the Union should have lived. If we have got to the point when it is treason to the United States to protect the rights and interests of our constituents, I ask why should they longer be represented here? Why longer remain a part of the Union?"The Honorable Jefferson Davis of Mississippi Excerpt from his speech in 1850 on the floor of the US Senate Jefferson Davis may have been a Senator from the State of Mississippi, but he was born in Kentucky. We have the Jefferson Davis monument in Hopkinsville, KY. www.civilwarhome.com/jdavisbio.htmen.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jefferson_Davis_State_Historic_SiteWe are the only state to have two men serving as President at the same time. The honorable Jefferson Davis and the tyrant from Illinois setting on his throne in Washington. Jefferson Davis stood for states rights and the other stood for Federalism as he abolished the Constitution during his war of aggression on the South. To our families shame, we are relate to the tyrant, by marriage. Mary Todd Lincoln was related to the Todd who lived in Lincoln County, and we are related to them.
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Post by NCFREEDOM on Oct 9, 2009 7:11:07 GMT -5
No offense taken. I don't know how we restore the republic. Little "revolutions" at the polls don't work, Democrate or Republican, (except for a few exceptions) are wolves of a different pack. So switching back a forth between this party in control or that party makes absolutely no difference in the restoration of the republic as our founders intended. That being said, how other than start fresh do you, eliminate the 10000+ Federal laws that open citizens up to FEDERAL crimes for selling orchids, reestablish a sound monetary system based on the founders intent of coinage of gold or silver, repeal the Tax code that is impossible to read or one person to even carry in printed form, eliminate the vast reeducation of Americans (or should I say, non education of Americans) when as long as they have an ATM, FOOD LION and AMERICAN IDOL they are compliant, reduce the size and scope of a welfare state to only those in true need and assistance are helped, but communities and churches provide the bulk of assistance, where I don't have to worry about a Federal Agents breaking into my home because I have one bullet to many, or have purchased one to many guns, or decide to harass me because I choose to open carry, or change the mind set of 30% of americans that believe in being owed or entitled to something, where both side are entrenched in their beliefs, there is no compromise, (and how do you compromise or arbitrate with evil)
Restoring what we once had may be like resurrecting the dead. We need a reboot so to speak. It would take mass repeal of amendments, elimination of thousands of laws and statues on the books. I am sorry to be so gloomy on my prognosis, restoring the republic is a noble endevour, but as I have said in the past, evil does not relinguish its grip on power and control without it being physically taken away. And then what, what or who fills the void? What leader can we point to today and say, "That is who we follow!".
A military coup? That entails its own risks. The political ballot box? I am not sure who to even vote for anymore. Revolution? Muster the Militia? What militia?
I know seccession entails the full force of the Federal Government. Dictator Barry won't stand for that.
Do we take 200 years to restore the republic? Do we allow tyranny to rein until the mass of people cry out for freedom again? Well in 1775 only a small percentage did, the rest could care less or liked the oppression.
So I guess what I am saying is, I don't know the answer. We have no leadership that hasn't been marginalized by the opposition, the press, of criminalized.
I know I sound hopeless, but I am looking for our exit strategy just like everyone else here, I can't find it or see it.
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Post by Echo5Alpha on Oct 9, 2009 8:48:28 GMT -5
It was Lord Acton, I believe, who wrote that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Added to that is something I heard recently, that power attracts the corruptible. We have a government power structure that is corrupt and attracting more corruptible people every single day. Is it even possible to reform Washington?
But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever. - John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams, July 17, 1775
Sobering words. They lead me to believe that our task, should it come to either a civil war, or a revolution, will be to establish a new nation under a new constitution. Our current Constitution has been trampled, and the flaws inherent in it have been fully exposed and exploited. We will need to look to the entirety of the founding documents to form a less centralized government similar to that established by the Articles of Confederation. We must consider the Federalist, as well as the Anti-Federalist Papers. The Declaration itself in the opening few paragraphs is a treasure trove for the liberty minded.
I long for the days when I believed that we as a nation were able to weather the storms and always remain the standard for freedom. As I grew older, those notions faded. Now, I just shake my head in disbelief at what we have allowed those we sent to D.C. to get us involved in. We ceded the reigns to demons who assured us they had our best interests in mind. It is time to take back the reigns and bring the chariot to a full stop.
Is it possible to carry out a coup through the ballot box? Could we elect enough lovers of freedom and liberty to the House and Senate to demand a constitutional convention to form a new system, or seek the dissolution of the current union? Is a peaceful solution possible? I suppose anything is possible. I can't say that I am optimistic about the probability of it happening peacefully. As stated in an earlier post, those in power now are unlikely to allow it without a fight.
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Post by brocktownsend on Oct 9, 2009 11:59:44 GMT -5
It was Lord Acton, I believe, who wrote that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely. Added to that is something I heard recently, that power attracts the corruptible. We have a government power structure that is corrupt and attracting more corruptible people every single day. Is it even possible to reform Washington? But a Constitution of Government once changed from Freedom, can never be restored. Liberty, once lost, is lost forever. - John Adams, letter to Abigail Adams, July 17, 1775 Sobering words. They lead me to believe that our task, should it come to either a civil war, or a revolution, will be to establish a new nation under a new constitution. Our current Constitution has been trampled, and the flaws inherent in it have been fully exposed and exploited. We will need to look to the entirety of the founding documents to form a less centralized government similar to that established by the Articles of Confederation. We must consider the Federalist, as well as the Anti-Federalist Papers. The Declaration itself in the opening few paragraphs is a treasure trove for the liberty minded. I long for the days when I believed that we as a nation were able to weather the storms and always remain the standard for freedom. As I grew older, those notions faded. Now, I just shake my head in disbelief at what we have allowed those we sent to D.C. to get us involved in. We ceded the reigns to demons who assured us they had our best interests in mind. It is time to take back the reigns and bring the chariot to a full stop. Is it possible to carry out a coup through the ballot box? Could we elect enough lovers of freedom and liberty to the House and Senate to demand a constitutional convention to form a new system, or seek the dissolution of the current union? Is a peaceful solution possible? I suppose anything is possible. I can't say that I am optimistic about the probability of it happening peacefully. As stated in an earlier post, those in power now are unlikely to allow it without a fight. "It was Lord Acton, I believe, who wrote that power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely."More on their correspondence. Lord Acton And Lee Correspond www.namsouth.com/viewtopic.php?t=123&highlight=actonSir John Dahlbert, also known as Lord Acton, whose most famous quote is, "Absolute power corrupts and absolute power corrupts absolutely" wrote Lee after the northern victory. Dahlberg was one of, if not the most erudite political philosophers of his time. In his letter asking for Lee's opinion of the result of the war he wrote: ".....The institutions of your Republic have not exercised on the old world the salutary and liberating influence which ought to have belonged to them, by reason of those defects and abuses of principle which the Confederate Constitution was expressly and wisely calculated to remedy. I believed that the example of that great Reform would have blessed all the races of mankind by establishing true freedom purged of the native dangers and disorders of Republics. Therefore I deemed that you were fighting the battles of our liberty, our progress, and our civilization; and I mourn for the stake which was lost at Richmond more deeply than I rejoice over that which was saved at Waterloo."
Lee replied: "I am conscious of the compliment conveyed in your request for my opinion as to the light in which American politics should be viewed, and had I the ability, I have not the time to enter upon a discussion, which was commenced by the founders of the constitution and has been continued to the present day. I can only say that while I have considered the preservation of the constitutional party of the General Government to be the foundation of our peace and safety at home and abroad, I yet believe that the maintenance of the rights and authority reserved to the states and to the people, not only essential to the adjustment and balance of the general system, but the safeguard to the continuance of a free government. I consider it a chief source of stability to our political system, whereas the consolidation of the states into one vast republic, sure to be aggressive abroad and despotic at home, will be the certain precursor of that ruin which has overwhelmed all those that have preceded it.......The South has contended only for the supremacy of the Constitution, and the just administration of the laws made in pursuance to it."
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