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Post by therev on Jul 30, 2009 9:34:44 GMT -5
Just one problem, gentlemen. WE DON'T HAVE 50 YEARS!!!
It took THEM 50 years to destroy what was built by ARMED REVOLUTION!! How long did that revolution last? And how long did it take THEM to destroy it? Now, you tell me which is more effective: Political Activism, or DYNAMIC SOCIAL REFORM!!?
History speaks VOLUMES on this. If you're treading water and you're still drowning, you TRY SOMETHING ELSE!!
The Rev
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Post by Michael Downing on Jul 30, 2009 20:07:03 GMT -5
First I will have to admit that keeping up with you all is just one step below having to read a congressional bill, Secondly I think if I undertsood what I have read that we are in general all agreeing on where we need to go but we have some disagreement on the best path that we need to take to get us there. From my opinion for what it is worth we have those who are optimistic about our chances to continue to work within the frame work of the system given to us by the founders and those who feel the system is broken to the point it cannot be fixed from within the peaceful confines of the system. All this being said I think there is no disagreement to where we need to go, a return to a Constitutional Republic.
To those who say that we can still fix it within the confines of the system I must say thank you for your optimism and yes I agree we can not give up on political pressure on those in office and to try to place Patriotic Citizen Statesmen in their place where it is required. I believe we need to keep up a full court press to the 2010 elections and put those in office that will uphold the Constitution. I believe we need to work locally to remain active and that we can be most effective on a local and state level and if effective there we will take the nation by default. I am not as optimistic but agree that to give up is resign ourselves to failure to a peaceful resloution to the future for our children and granchildren. I am not sure we can fix it within the system but I will continue to try with every call and email that I can make until the time comes for the next step on the path freedom if it comes.
To those who believe the system is broken, I must disagree. It is so perverted that if the founders came back they would either be shocked into silence or laugh out loud and say didn't we tell you this would happen. As perverted as it is we still have a possiblity to bring first slow, then stop our slide into hell. Once that is done we could slowly redirect the nation onto the corretc path. This being said the founders also made it quite clear that when the government had turned to total tyranny and did not respond to the pleas of the Poeple then it was the Peoples right to change government in place or over throw the tyrannts.
To make sure that I am in compliance with the rules of this site I am not advocating violence against any individual in particular or an over throw of the government in general. I acknowledge that the mission of this site is to create a comminication network to let patriots know of current situations or legislature that endangers our liberty and ultimately if necessary a means to contact patriots if the SHTF. Since this site was created for that purpose it would be "stupid" (A Presidential term) to ignore the possiblity of such an event happening. While we must (all of us ) continue to work for a peaceful resolution, I also believe we need to be vigilant and off line from here prepare for the worst as this forum is not the place. We should reach out as far as we can to meet face to face and exchange ideas and plans. God Bless...
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Post by brocktownsend on Jul 30, 2009 20:18:39 GMT -5
First I will have to admit that keeping up with you all is just one step below having to read a congressional bill, Secondly I think if I undertsood what I have read that we are in general all agreeing on where we need to go but we have some disagreement on the best path that we need to take to get us there. From my opinion for what it is worth we have those who are optimistic about our chances to continue to work within the frame work of the system given to us by the founders and those who feel the system is broken to the point it cannot be fixed from within the peaceful confines of the system. All this being said I think there is no disagreement to where we need to go, a return to a Constitutional Republic. To those who say that we can still fix it within the confines of the system I must say thank you for your optimism and yes I agree we can not give up on political pressure on those in office and to try to place Patriotic Citizen Statesmen in their place where it is required. I believe we need to keep up a full court press to the 2010 elections and put those in office that will uphold the Constitution. I believe we need to work locally to remain active and that we can be most effective on a local and state level and if effective there we will take the nation by default. I am not as optimistic but agree that to give up is resign ourselves to failure to a peaceful resloution to the future for our children and granchildren. I am not sure we can fix it within the system but I will continue to try with every call and email that I can make until the time comes for the next step on the path freedom if it comes. To those who believe the system is broken, I must disagree. It is so perverted that if the founders came back they would either be shocked into silence or laugh out loud and say didn't we tell you this would happen. As perverted as it is we still have a possiblity to bring first slow, then stop our slide into hell. Once that is done we could slowly redirect the nation onto the corretc path. This being said the founders also made it quite clear that when the government had turned to total tyranny and did not respond to the pleas of the Poeple then it was the Peoples right to change government in place or over throw the tyrannts. To make sure that I am in compliance with the rules of this site I am not advocating violence against any individual in particular or an over throw of the government in general. I acknowledge that the mission of this site is to create a comminication network to let patriots know of current situations or legislature that endangers our liberty and ultimately if necessary a means to contact patriots if the SHTF. Since this site was created for that purpose it would be "stupid" (A Presidential term) to ignore the possiblity of such an event happening. While we must (all of us ) continue to work for a peaceful resolution, I also believe we need to be vigilant and off line from here prepare for the worst as this forum is not the place. We should reach out as far as we can to meet face to face and exchange ideas and plans. God Bless... Well said.
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Post by themachine on Jul 30, 2009 20:46:24 GMT -5
Commander, I don't see how it could be summed up any better. If I get back to Morganton, I'll definitely look you up. Last time I was down there, I was on the crew that laid the block and brick for the 'Food Lion' plaza.
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Post by therev on Jul 31, 2009 8:49:14 GMT -5
"To those who believe the system is broken, I must disagree. It is so perverted that if the founders came back they would either be shocked into silence or laugh out loud and say didn't we tell you this would happen. As perverted as it is we still have a possiblity to bring first slow, then stop our slide into hell. Once that is done we could slowly redirect the nation onto the corretc path. This being said the founders also made it quite clear that when the government had turned to total tyranny and did not respond to the pleas of the Poeple then it was the Peoples right to change government in place or over throw the tyrannts." - Commander
Let me get this out and stated, as not stating it in the past has caused rifts on other boards: What I write here is my own opinion. My opinion is comprised of reading historical accounts, strategy, tactics, historical instances of resistance to tyranny, and numerous other related topics, written by people who also learned from history, and from their own, personal experiences. What I post, I post with respect to all, regardless of how my posts may be taken. We are all in this together. We are all Patriots with the restoration of our Constitutional Republic in our hearts and minds, set as our Grand Strategy. And it is our Grand Strategy which governs our actions.
The idea that the system is not broken and beyond repair is flawed. It is broken, but it is not beyond repair. Perhaps in my previous posts I didn't make this belief clear, but I intend to correct that now.
-We have an illegitimate "president".
-We have WHO, FEMA, the CDC and others intending to mandate untested vaccines to we, the people...by force, if necessary.
-We have a lip-service government with at least two faces -- speaking security to some, and amnesty to millions, leading to at least one broken border.
-We have military personnel from all parts of the world training on our soil for the purpose of controlling we, the people.
-We have a Department of Homeland Security calling us "domestic terrorists", and, generally, enemies of the state.
-We have "law enforcement" which follows orders in lock-step with the illegitimate government that issues their orders. Just like the Waffen SS.
-We have digital cameras watching our every move.
-We can be tracked by our purchases, finances, bills, and who knows what else.
-We can have our faces mapped as we drive to the bank, the store, or church.
-We can piss off a neighbor and have children's services, the ATF, the IRS and many other Big Brother agencies inspecting our lives at will.
Shall I go on? How many things have you thought of that I haven't?
Face the facts, gentlemen, the system IS BROKEN. And, the Founding Fathers wouldn't just "either be shocked into silence or laugh out loud and say didn't we tell you this would happen?". They would be absolutely outraged at US, for allowing this to happen for entirely too long. They would not recognize us as Patriots. They would be disgraced and ashamed to call us countrymen. And they'd be right to do so. I know we'd like to believe differently, but in truth, we cannot.
However, there are numerous ways in which this problem may be fixed. At least two have been presented within this thread: Political Activism, and Dynamic Social Reform. Both are means to an end. And, in the end, each of us must do what is right for ourselves, so long as the Grand Strategy continues to guide us.
We don't have fifty years, as I stated previously. But, nobody knows how much time we do have. So, the Political Activism bunch can continue to work in their chosen field of focus, and the DSR group can do likewise. We can agree to disagree, while both groups remain governed by the Grand Strategy, and we all work toward the same goal.
This cause is greater than all of us combined, all over the country. And it deserves the respect of not arguing needlessly amongst ourselves, creating divides, and destroying ourselves from within. This just makes our cause less effective, and I offer my apologies for having done so in previous posts on this thread.
We're at a point in history, folks, that is unprecidented (sp) in this country. King George never dreamed of having such power, and the Founding Fathers never knew the nightmare could grow so large. Rand, Orwell, Ross, Bracken and others have been right in their works. They may have missed a few details, but the general themes have been spot on.
Together, we stand. Divided...we're screwed.
I'll not argue this anymore. It doesn't help anyone.
The Rev
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Post by themachine on Jul 31, 2009 12:55:12 GMT -5
Rev, yes we are all united under the same Cause, I really believe that. Perhaps the definition of "system" is where things are blurred. I know myself and others look at the "system" as the framework for our government, which is the Constitution. Looking at it from this perspective, the system is not broke, for it still exists, it's just been allowed to be misused or circumvented by those in power, and the people of this country haven't used it as intended. The "system" (Constitution) is a tool that hasn't been used correctly or effectively by Americans, and it's been ignored or blatantly misused by the haters of Liberty.
Instead of splitting frog hairs over word definitions, we who profess to honor the Founders, should be following their protocol to the letter. And we collectively haven't done that. Their are many principled people who would never vote "the lesser of two evils" and only support no-compromise candidates that are strict adherents to the Constitution. Most folks don't do this, they always settle for compromise. They feel their duty is complete when they cast a vote every 2-4 years. Our "system" was never designed to operate this way, and the outcome will always be disastrous, as we well know.
I don't see what sense it makes to keep comparing our "system" to that of Colonial times, and the struggle with the Crown. Or making comparisons to Nazis, fascists, socialists, communists, etc. None of these people or countries ever had something that we still posses, a representative Republic as outlined by the US Constitution.
Myself and others aren't naive, we are just saying that something can't be called a failure if it hasn't been used to it's fullest potential. We have failed the system, the system hasn't failed us. Contingency plans must be made for a "worst case" scenario, to do otherwise would be irresponsible.
When people in this Cause start talking about using radical methods to facilitate change, I do take keen notice of these things. I personally have a vested interest, along with my children, grandchildren, and loved ones. If some "hair trigger" prematurely initiates an act of stupidity, it will not only discredit this movement, but will selfishly force the rest of us into the very thing that we are tirelessly working to avoid.
I'm just saying, lets keep our wits about us, and not add fuel to an already smoldering fire.
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Post by Michael Downing on Jul 31, 2009 23:13:03 GMT -5
Rev let's not let this digress to a matter of semantics and I 100% agree with you that united we stand. You can claim it is broken and I can claim perverted but we can agree on one thing we do not have 50 years to fix it. The Founders knew that from the day the formed this country that the limited Federal entity they created would become a self serving monstrosity. They knew that by its very nature power would seek more power and that power once found would never be given up lightly. Is there any other reason for such a message to be passed down to us from Tomas Jefferson.
"God forbid we should ever be twenty years without such a rebellion. The people cannot be all, and always, well informed. The part which is wrong will be discontented, in proportion to the importance of the facts they misconceive. If they remain quiet under such misconceptions, it is lethargy, the forerunner of death to the public liberty. ... And what country can preserve its liberties, if it's rulers are not warned from time to time, that this people preserve the spirit of resistance? Let them take arms. The remedy is to set them right as to the facts, pardon and pacify them. What signify a few lives lost in a century or two? The tree of liberty must be refreshed from time to time, with the blood of patriots and tyrants. It is its natural manure."
The system is not broke in my humble opinion but certainly perverted. The Founders laid out every alternative for us both within the system and without when the system becomes so perverted that we can not take it back no other way. Let's agree to the end game and pray... God Bless
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Post by Michael Downing on Jul 31, 2009 23:18:16 GMT -5
Themachine, you make it this way send me a message and I will gladly have you to my house for a steak or ribs and a drink of your choice. We will win this one God willing and I believe He is not done with this shining light of Freedom yet...
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Post by themachine on Jul 31, 2009 23:23:56 GMT -5
WILCO brother; I'll gladly partake with a fellow Patriot, thanks. The offer stands on my end as well.
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Post by philt on Aug 1, 2009 9:53:27 GMT -5
I like the optimism in this thread about being proactive and fighting back against tyranny. But can we really undo the "change" our federal government had "given" us? The left wingers have been subverting our government for years. They have not only managed to get themselves in influential positions, but have also used the courts to firmly entrench their Marxist ideology in the name of fairness.
How do we turn back the tides of nationalism when they are openly being forced on us "for our good"? Not only have the banks been nationalized, but so have insurance giants and auto makers. Our government now OWNS private business sectors in finance, insurance, and manufacturing. The energy industry has essentially been nationalized because to drill for oil, or explore, or build a refinery or power plant requires GOVERNMENT PERMISSION!!
Face it patriots. America can never go back and will never be the same ever again. Our liberty and Constitution are openly trampled on a daily basis, yet we think we can still wait for the line in the sand to be proactive? America is already fragmented into red states and blue states, ethnic communities, haves and have nots, evangelicals and non believers. The blender is not working to the benefit of individualism and personal responsibility. Fascist czars are micromanaging our health, welfare, even the air we breathe.
America will never become as one ever again with the fragmentation of our society by the government and the courts. Applying for redress is a noble idea and certainly worth the continued pursuit. But perhaps we should be more focused upon our individual states?
Our nation as a whole will soon be subdivided. Probably not within our choice of the time frame. We need to do what we can within our respective states to keep the light of liberty shining brightly. I suspect that America could soon break up, just like the former Soviet Union. America is on the verge of economic collapse and that will be our ruination. The war we end up fighting will be for our very survival and right to exist and retain our assets the government needs to remain solvent and legitimate. If you live in a blue state, little can be done to change how business is done. One should consider moving to a RED state for transitional security. And protect your RBKA and 2nd Amendment. Without firearms, the 1st Amendment is worthless.
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Post by busboy on Aug 1, 2009 22:03:50 GMT -5
Sadly, if you keep telling yourself, and your buddies, "We have lost control and can't regain it", you will get your wish.
Damn sad that those who are defeated have become so, so quickly and easily.
"They don't listen", we ain't talking. "They don't care about America", why should they, those they represent don't either. "We can't regain control", especially if you really don't try.
Sad in deed.
36 + States with 10th Amendment resolutions at some level, with 28 of them coming on line since January.......Yea, things are really moving slowly.
We need not 50 years, not even 10, heck, if we actually applied ourselves, we would see a turn in 2, and could nearly effect a 180 in 6. But, it is easier to complain, whine and give up.
"Agree to disagree"? Sorry, those who are not part of the solution are just as much a part of the problem. Sitting on ones can, digging a bunker, "preparing for a last stand", all the while doing little to stave off the conditions leading to the last stand, well that is just not the American way.
Sorry if folks take offense. It is the inaction of the owners of this nation which got us here. "Preparing for the worse", all the while not working with the tools our Founders gave us to keep the worse from happening in the first place......gotta a word for that, won't put it here.
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Post by avordvet on Aug 2, 2009 7:13:18 GMT -5
There are definitely two trains of thought within Alarm and Muster.
One is the infinitely optimistic crowd, of which I used to be a member, that endeavors to use the system to the fullest, but fails to fully admit that the deck is stacked against them, so they keep backing up towards the precipice, looking for that "line in the sand" that will not be crossed, all the while counseling others on the "limits" of ones discourse, reminding all to only work within "The System"... a "system" by the way, that has almost brought about the destruction of our country and way of life.
Then you have the other side of the equation, that sees the Constitution as the framework to repair a completely broken federal government. Some will deny that the damage is that extensive, but In My Humble Opinion; refusing to accept this as fact, it is to admit to wearing self installed blinders. It is dangerous to you and the Republic to continually deny that the Executive, Legislative and Judicial are not all irreparably broken and completely unlocked from their constitutional restraints.
Look at the facts; you have witnessed the politicians betrayal of the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights, You have witnessed them subjugating present and future generations with burdensome taxes... making the population financial slaves to the State, You have witnessed their unrelenting attack on the Country, the Family and the Individual, You have witnessed YOUR representatives IGNORING the WILL Of The People.
If you look at this with Principles, Morals and Values (Common Sense), you cannot deny that the Federal Government is completely beyond any and all Constitutional "restriction"... They have taken over the Education System, The Financial System, The Banking System, The Transportation System and are now looking to take over the Energy System and the Health System.
So in the final analysis, our situation is not that different from our founding... a burdensome and tyrannical government controlling and subjugating a population. and just as in that period, the camp was divided, but in the end, it was the "3%" that pushed the country into freedom.
I believe our last chance is coming soon, enough people are awakening every day, taking a look around and saying WTF? I am heartened that more are jumping into the battle for our country and I hope we can be successful in turning this around without conflict, but as I learned in the service many years ago...
... Luck Always Favors The Prepared!
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Post by brocktownsend on Aug 2, 2009 9:37:24 GMT -5
There are definitely two trains of thought within Alarm and Muster. One is the infinitely optimistic crowd, of which I used to be a member, that endeavors to use the system to the fullest, but fails to fully admit that the deck is stacked against them, so they keep backing up towards the precipice, looking for that "line in the sand" that will not be crossed, all the while counseling others on the "limits" of ones discourse, reminding all to only work within "The System"... a "system" by the way, that has almost brought about the destruction of our country and way of life. Then you have the other side of the equation, that sees the Constitution as the framework to repair a completely broken federal government. Some will deny that the damage is that extensive, but In My Humble Opinion; refusing to accept this as fact, it is to admit to wearing self installed blinders. It is dangerous to you and the Republic to continually deny that the Executive, Legislative and Judicial are not all irreparably broken and completely unlocked from their constitutional restraints. Look at the facts; you have witnessed the politicians betrayal of the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights, You have witnessed them subjugating present and future generations with burdensome taxes... making the population financial slaves to the State, You have witnessed their unrelenting attack on the Country, the Family and the Individual, You have witnessed YOUR representatives IGNORING the WILL Of The People. If you look at this with Principles, Morals and Values (Common Sense), you cannot deny that the Federal Government is completely beyond any and all Constitutional "restriction"... They have taken over the Education System, The Financial System, The Banking System, The Transportation System and are now looking to take over the Energy System and the Health System. So in the final analysis, our situation is not that different from our founding... a burdensome and tyrannical government controlling and subjugating a population. and just as in that period, the camp was divided, but in the end, it was the "3%" that pushed the country into freedom. I believe our last chance is coming soon, enough people are awakening every day, taking a look around and saying WTF? I am heartened that more are jumping into the battle for our country and I hope we can be successful in turning this around without conflict, but as I learned in the service many years ago... ... Luck Always Favors The Prepared! Some good thoughts, and reminds me of the Peasants With Pitchforks/Torches article that 2ncraa posted yesterday in the Town Meetings thread.
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Post by philt on Aug 2, 2009 10:35:34 GMT -5
avordvet said
" Look at the facts; you have witnessed the politicians betrayal of the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights, You have witnessed them subjugating present and future generations with burdensome taxes... making the population financial slaves to the State, You have witnessed their unrelenting attack on the Country, the Family and the Individual, You have witnessed YOUR representatives IGNORING the WILL Of The People.
If you look at this with Principles, Morals and Values (Common Sense), you cannot deny that the Federal Government is completely beyond any and all Constitutional "restriction"... They have taken over the Education System, The Financial System, The Banking System, The Transportation System and are now looking to take over the Energy System and the Health System."
That is exactly what my thoughts are. And now on this forum the House has passed a "food safety bill" that essentially regulates small meat locker plants the same as the corporate giants, and essentially can shud down small farms and produce markets. The government is taking control of our food as well.
So now we have government owning Banks, Home mortgages, Insurance, Manufacturing, oil leases they won't re-sell, transportation, and now food. They have done this right before our eyes. I think the personal freedoms our Constitution has guaranteed us have been trampled beyond what peaceful negotiation can reclaim. The government thinks the Constitution has granted THEM THE FREEDOM TO ENSLAVE AND PROTECT US.
ARE WE SO SECURE IN OUR FREEDOMS THAT SIMPLY HAVING A JOB AND 2 CARS IN THE DRIVEWAY IN FRONT OF A HOUSE IN THE SUBURBS IS ENOUGH TO BUY US OFF? The government gives. And the government can take away. We are being set up for the big take away. The government has already crossed the line in the sand as far as i am concerned. Waiting for the government to choose the time and place to suspend the Constitution to fight will be too late.
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jinli
New Member
South Carolina State POC
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Post by jinli on Aug 2, 2009 21:49:33 GMT -5
I'm am at the point of selling anything I can get so much as a penny for. I know I'm off for battle, material possessions mean not a thing if your not alive to enjoy them. That's where we are at. That's where writing our congress has got us. A whole bunch of nothing. I am gonna be the first they want to vaccinate, and writing my congress isn't gonna do a damn thing for me now. Any man with any intellect knows the only way this is gonna be accomplished is to cut the head off the beast. The thing I think most people are not thinking about is, in every book about war and power, a common rule of thumb for all dictators is to do all your dirty work in the first year. Bush 9/11 now Obama. If your ignorant enough to believe that they are not gonna force us into battle, please do us all a favor and AT LEAST get a WILL!!! Don't die intestate, that's what they want. They want us dead, taken by surprise and with no will. Also why haven't we had any meetings? We aren't we more organized. These people have been plotting against us for 100's of years, and we can't even get our plans together? Amazing. As a wise man once said to me, those who fail to PLAN, PLAN to FAIL!!!! And as I like to add, as it pertains to consistency, When you stray from the PLAN, (Our Constitution) SHIT ALWAYS HITS THE FAN!!!! Let us try to come together in this 11th hour. UNITY IS OUR ONLY HOPE!!!!
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Post by avordvet on Aug 3, 2009 5:39:39 GMT -5
Hey jinli, you are saying what a lot of us feel... but jumping up, grabbing your gun to run off and fight the Fed will surely end in a defeat.
A lot of us have seen this time coming for quite awhile and it took us this long to wake a small minority. Our ranks are starting to grow and other groups such as civil defense, militia and survival have been consolidating throughout the country.
The push back is starting, but we must be measured in our response, as you have seen many times here... there are people more than willing to step up and fight, but the time has to be right or it will be turned AGAINST us.
The "average" citizen is still asleep, in denial or too afraid to step forward. But the time is rapidly approaching where they will have no choice but to pick a direction... Fight or Flight, that is when you will have to be ready to step forward to calm and help direct them, most of us have already "war gamed" the possible scenarios and have been preparing for what may come.
So stay tight and finish your preparations.
"Luck Always Favors The Prepared"
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jinli
New Member
South Carolina State POC
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Post by jinli on Aug 3, 2009 19:41:04 GMT -5
I agree with you. I am not running off to battle, ill prepared. I am anxiously waiting for the right time as you put it. I want to remain on a local level. However if they unleash this pandemic flu status, and declare martial law....people are only going to be able to work on a local level. I have been doing my part to wake up as many as I can, I am anticipating some kind of movement through this site and some others, although I have yet to receive any contact through this site, and I think the time to meet and greet is now! Not after they declare ML not after they make it criminal not to get a vaccine. My hope is we COME TOGETHER, SOONER rather than LATER!!! Any idea how long it takes to get a phone call from the contacts on this site?
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Post by busboy on Aug 7, 2009 21:32:02 GMT -5
Cracks me up. Those 'young and tough guys' here are being out flanked by the old folks at AARP. They are shutting down the Obama Care deal, but actually doing something, not chest thumping. 'I will charge the hill', big words when one won't do the simple, easy things that CAN and have Proven to work. If someone is detached enough to think that if writing a letter won't work, then nothing will work, then they are best as fodder for those who they fear, charge away. It is the systematic neglect of the owners of this nation, We the People, which allows these power hungry animals devour our Rights and our families. Until, and never before, we get enough of the 'We the People' active, like those old farts and the folks showing up at the 'town hall' meetings to confront these animals on the facts, they will have no respect for us. There are very good strides being made for the cause of Liberty, and having a bunch of half-cocked, eyes wide shut, people claiming because they don't understand the power and potential of the American people, they are going to botch this whole nation with "charging the hill", sad, truly sad. Cowards each and every one who does not take up their duty as owners of this nation and instead seeks the suicidal route of charging the hill that needs no charging. For crying out loud, the AARP grannies are kicking butt, doing what too many refuse to do... adorable, be sure to thank your grandmother for doing your job. Positive Strides for Liberty: a list of some of the recent actions and movements which make me positive about trends or movement for Freedom and Liberty, mainly from the efforts on the State level. -37 States have either passed (at some level) or considering 10th Amendment resolutions. Here is a site which tracks and works to progress this effort across the nation: www.tenthamendmentcenter.com/-Several states have passed laws which are a direct challenge federal authority, in differing areas: --Montana and Tennessee have passed laws allowing firearm and ammo manufacture within their state without regard to federal/ATF laws (Utah, Texas, New Hampshire and several others are working on a similar bill) -- Florida is seeking a Florida Constitution amendment to disallow a national health care program in Florida. --Oklahoma is seeking an Oklahoma Constitution amendment to make English the official language of that state. - Many states have passed laws to outlaw the national ID act which was to be enacted by May of 2008, it has since been abandoned by the fed. - Many states have passed laws against the use of Eminent Domain to transfer private property to others for the sole purpose of revenue generation, contrary to the "Kelo" decision from the Supreme Court. - Many states have passed laws, in the wake of New Orleans gun confiscation after Katrina, making it against the law (again) to confiscate firearms even during a state of emergency. - 41 states have Shall Issue Conceal Carry laws, directly contrary to what the federal government wants, just look at how they handle D.C. - Firearm and ammo sales are through the roof, for the last year. This gives us an indication of just how nervous and alert the American people are. 1.2 to 1.5 million firearms sold each month from about November of last year, with over 1 Billion rounds of ammo sold in America in the last 12 months. -There is a large movement of "normal" Americans getting engaged in the running of their country, Tea Parties, Town Hall Meetings, and a host of other similar movements. This is gaining speed and Americans are beginning to realize they have to participate in the process, they can no long sit and watch.
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Post by Michael Downing on Aug 7, 2009 22:31:08 GMT -5
Busboy I have spent many hours trying to convince myself that we will be able to turn this around at the ballot box. I thought the sytem was not broken and I thought as perverted as it was we could bring it back. As every day goes by I find that the enemy will never let that happen. Despite all your optimism from where I stand today no matter what happens there appears that there will be a civil war coming. The difference between us and the socilaist/facists is not a gap that can be bridged and I have done all I can to convince myself that this is not true. You are correct in all your posts that the founders have laid out the frame work that we need to take the country back. I would wish that we could vote our way back and I will continue to try to do so. If we can not begin to show as we approach 2010 that we are back on track then I will spend every spare second that I have to prepare for what I know will come. I will not provoke but I will not stand down.
"Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." Thomas Jefferson
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Post by brocktownsend on Aug 7, 2009 23:20:00 GMT -5
Busboy I have spent many hours trying to convince myself that we will be able to turn this around at the ballot box. I thought the sytem was not broken and I thought as perverted as it was we could bring it back. As every day goes by I find that the enemy will never let that happen. Despite all your optimism from where I stand today no matter what happens there appears that there will be a civil war coming. The difference between us and the socilaist/facists is not a gap that can be bridged and I have done all I can to convince myself that this is not true. You are correct in all your posts that the founders have laid out the frame work that we need to take the country back. I would wish that we could vote our way back and I will continue to try to do so. If we can not begin to show as we approach 2010 that we are back on track then I will spend every spare second that I have to prepare for what I know will come. I will not provoke but I will not stand down. "Resistance to tyrants is obedience to God." Thomas Jefferson 2010 is the turning point. No progress then, we need to go to the mattress. Fortunately, many of us are preparing for the worst. We can't expect to stay where we are under certain circumstances, and why, though not my idea, we are, and those of use who haven't, should think of leasing land that we could live upon/defend, if the worst comes to bear.
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Post by bobstyle on Aug 8, 2009 1:25:58 GMT -5
There are definitely two trains of thought within Alarm and Muster. One is the infinitely optimistic crowd, of which I used to be a member, that endeavors to use the system to the fullest, but fails to fully admit that the deck is stacked against them, so they keep backing up towards the precipice, looking for that "line in the sand" that will not be crossed, all the while counseling others on the "limits" of ones discourse, reminding all to only work within "The System"... a "system" by the way, that has almost brought about the destruction of our country and way of life. Then you have the other side of the equation, that sees the Constitution as the framework to repair a completely broken federal government. Some will deny that the damage is that extensive, but In My Humble Opinion; refusing to accept this as fact, it is to admit to wearing self installed blinders. It is dangerous to you and the Republic to continually deny that the Executive, Legislative and Judicial are not all irreparably broken and completely unlocked from their constitutional restraints. Look at the facts; you have witnessed the politicians betrayal of the Constitution and the Bill Of Rights, You have witnessed them subjugating present and future generations with burdensome taxes... making the population financial slaves to the State, You have witnessed their unrelenting attack on the Country, the Family and the Individual, You have witnessed YOUR representatives IGNORING the WILL Of The People. If you look at this with Principles, Morals and Values (Common Sense), you cannot deny that the Federal Government is completely beyond any and all Constitutional "restriction"... They have taken over the Education System, The Financial System, The Banking System, The Transportation System and are now looking to take over the Energy System and the Health System. So in the final analysis, our situation is not that different from our founding... a burdensome and tyrannical government controlling and subjugating a population. and just as in that period, the camp was divided, but in the end, it was the "3%" that pushed the country into freedom. I believe our last chance is coming soon, enough people are awakening every day, taking a look around and saying WTF? I am heartened that more are jumping into the battle for our country and I hope we can be successful in turning this around without conflict, but as I learned in the service many years ago... ... Luck Always Favors The Prepared! I agree that there are definitely 2 trains of thought here. for those of you that are new to the board , you don't know the hell I went through when I posted my opinion on how things were going. They might have been hasty knee jerk reactions but I still feel that we are fighting a losing battle wth talk .but , I have done some soul searching and stepped back from the whole thing . the big picture became very clear to me. If we all act at once with guns and not words, we may be able to gain some ground for a while, however, we as citizens are already at a disadvantage on several levels. the powers that be have an INFINITE number of resources available. Air support, armored vehichles , tanks, ships with long range guided missiles, helicopters equiped with FLIR, RF and Radar jamming equipment, BOMBS. They have the UN forces for an unlimited supply of fresh ,Highly trained ground troops. they have an unlimited supply of weapons and ammo. we as citizens have to rely on mail order and walmart for a trickle of EXPENSIVE ammo and guns. Most of our citizenry that would actually stand and fight are not trained in guerilla warfare tactics . they , like me, have spent a few hours at a range sighting in their guns at targets that AREN'T shooting back. let the first close impact come and half of us will crap our brand new BDUs we just bought at the surplus store. if you have never been shot at you don't know how you will react. These guys won't play around to try to scare you. When faced with the option to kill someone in your crosshairs , could you? you won't know until that situation comes. It could be someone as scared as you that simply is out there to survive and do a job he/she took an oath to do regardless of who the CIC is. Look at Afghanistan . They have been fighting for decades . the people that are fighting against UN forces are much like us. they simply want their way of life observed. they are scrappy but they have limited resources. ARE YOU PREPARED TO FIGHT THE REST OF YOUR LIFE ? the GOVT will not simply roll over if we start shooting. it's not that simple. The senior officials (including the president) will simply administer from a safe location as they unleash HELL on us. right now , you can get up from your computer and get a beer and a bag of chips, watch TV then go to bed in your air conditioned home. you can drive to the store and get more chips and a pack of smokes if you want. let this come to an armed conflict and you'll be on sentry duty in a field , likely ,with nothing to eat for days and a hole to crap in and bugs for your only companion. no cell communications, no TV .nothing but you , a gun and FEAR. this can last until you get shot to death or captured and tortured by UN troops. They will capture your families and torture them . they will be ruthless. do not expect them to observe the Geneva convention or wear bright red coats and march in a straight line . once we run out of ammo we will be captured and put to death for treason. there is a very good chance that if we don't win in an armed conflict we will all die . I have guns and will defend my home with my life if it comes to it. I will stand on the lines with the rest of you IF it comes to it. But, you must realize that IF an armed conflict begins that it will not be as easy as digging in and shooting until we win.
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Post by themachine on Aug 8, 2009 2:30:03 GMT -5
Man Bob, that "breather" really seems to have served you well! Refreshing the Tree of Liberty is more than bravado and aggressive talk...there needs to be a huge dose of intelligence behind it; as you pointed out. We would never stand a chance against our military's superior weapons, no matter how strong our will is. Our task is to reach the "hearts and minds" of those operators behind the weapons. I believe we're making some headway in that direction...
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Post by Brandon1 on Aug 8, 2009 3:19:38 GMT -5
Bob wow you hit the nail on the head. We have a few options now. We as a nation can still show our elected officials that they work for us not the other way around. We just have to look at history to tell us that if a armed conflict does happen in our land that things are going to be bad for a good while. It will not be a month or 2 it will probably last at least a year. Many of the chest thumpers will be ready to surrender at all of the issue's that will arise. From family to isolation. We have the ability to change things now before a shot is fired. It is time for us as American's to stand up and be active in our government. If you choose not to do this you have no one to blame but yourself. May we turn this great ship around before the end. Edit: For the record I hope it never comes to a armed conflict. But as many have said hope and pray for the best but prepare for the worst. Now get to a Appleseed shoot and be prepared just in case.
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Post by avordvet on Aug 8, 2009 5:45:52 GMT -5
Hey Bob, Welcome back... and don't go to far into the peace nic side, next thing I'll see is a flower sticking out of your gun barrel... Superior firepower can be negated, using your example of Afghanistan, just look further back into Afghan history, a huge and technically advanced military toiled for many years to subjugate people that were living in frigging caves. Even with all the Aircraft, Artillery, Heavy and Light Armor, and some of the best Special Forces in the world, the soviets went home in defeat... Hello U.S.A. and yes I am prepared to battle for the rest of my life to defend my beliefs.
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Post by trap115 on Aug 8, 2009 6:30:14 GMT -5
When and if it comes to that we would have to stand together,otherwise we would be taken out one by one with over whelming odds. we can't just wait in our homes for them to show up.or run to the nearest hills to hide. we would need to be with other like minded people in small groups,willing to do what is needed. guerilla tactics 101.//
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Post by busboy on Aug 8, 2009 9:22:08 GMT -5
If you walked in to a home and the carpets were cluttered and filthy, you might make the conclusion that the vacuum cleaner is broken in that home. However, it might be they just don't use it.
This the situation with our "system". It ain't broken, can't be broken.
Here is the real situation, the American People have stopped using it.
In those areas where they are starting to use it again, it is working fine! Look at the GREAT progress for Liberty which is being made on the STATE level! Don't fixate on the federal level, if you do, you will think the system is broken.
Now also keep in mind, the Socialist.....OK, let's just call them fascist, cuz they are.....are not a majority in America and not a majority in Congress. They just happen to have the power, and the White House.
You know there is a movement to oust Pelosi from her Speakership? You know Reid is feeling the heat, he voted FOR the national CCW? This should give you plenty of hope that We the People are having an impact. Their own party members are starting to pressure them.
It is much, MUCH more than "elections". Elections are just a barometer of what We the People are thinking. We need to impact the Hearts and Minds of We the People, then they will reflect the Founder's will in their actions.
1) How about finding like minded folks in your state level representative district to start writing one minute letters to your state level rep? -urge, or encourage them to propose pro-liberty legislation (10th Amend, Montana firearms, banning of national health care, etc). - Get your like minded friends to seek such in neighboring state level districts. - Get your state reps, who reside in your federal Reps district to start pressuring him to act according to the People's will. They will hold a great deal of sway, especially if they work together.
2) How about finding those organizations within your state which are working on some of the items above? Most every state has one or more, CCW, Take Back {your state}.
3) Find and work with organizations which work to wake up and educate We the People to their roots, their Heritage. Someone above mentioned Appleseed, a very good start.
4) How about setting up One Minute Letter/post card tables at the Tea Parties in your area? Get them used to actually doing something, may be their first step to becoming active.
5) This A&M site is great for networking "just in case". While waiting for "just in case" can it work as a place to coordinate efforts to keep "just in case" from ever happening? 800+ members, I would imagine that each might be able to muster 3-5 others to help in the above items.
If your buddies won't help in the above items, you really think they will leave their warm cozy beds and join you in a fox hole?
Not only 'can it work', it IS WORKING! So, to disregard the possibilities of working around those few socialist fascist who have leveraged some political control for the moment, is to accept the failure of the Founder's nation.
Many of your fellow neighbors all feel the same as you. Why do you think Obama has made such a HUGE deal about his "snitch on a friend" program in conjunction with his healthcare? People are starting to wake up and network, and he is trying to keep them from doing that by making them think their friends will "tell on them".
We have to work from the local/state level up if we want to see the system work and succeed.
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Post by bobstyle on Aug 8, 2009 13:53:57 GMT -5
Hey Bob, Welcome back... and don't go to far into the peace nic side, next thing I'll see is a flower sticking out of your gun barrel... Superior firepower can be negated, using your example of Afghanistan, just look further back into Afghan history, a huge and technically advanced military toiled for many years to subjugate people that were living in frigging caves. Even with all the Aircraft, Artillery, Heavy and Light Armor, and some of the best Special Forces in the world, the soviets went home in defeat... Hello U.S.A. and yes I am prepared to battle for the rest of my life to defend my beliefs. Oh no, don't misunderstand my statements. I am not all daisies and butterflies. yesterday I was set to destroy everything and everyone on earth. ( I paid $90 for 4 bags of food at the grocery store). but our situation is what it is. you mentioned negating superior firepower and people living in caves. That's my point. is living in a cave , deprived of your normal freedoms , any different than living in a prison ? As I said many times. I have weapons and am willing to follow . I will fight till there is nothing left to get our country back . on that I will never waiver. however it makes no sense to attack a brick wall with a water balloon. It's better to let the water weaken the foundation so the wall falls on it's own. some people see this as one group running at the other ,guns a-blazing. it's not gonna be like that. it's gonna be surgical strikes on groups , propaganda , mind games , depravation of food/water , weakening of spirit ,etc. hell they just have to wait us out . they force martial law then we go into hiding. then we run out of supplies . we come out , they attack. they will set fire to the land you are hiding on or in. some will survive but most will not. they have plenty of practice doing these things. how many times have you watched a boxer get tired and drop his gloves only to let the more patient fighter pound him into the mat? I would love to believe that our troops would not fire on us but , they have been in combat for several months . they are desensitized to the human aspect of it. they see a target, they shoot it. you become a target not a person they may have played peewee ball with.plus, with UN troops involved, they don't any kind of kinship with us. It's gonna be dangerous. I post these not so much to deter you from these thoughts of agression ,but to remind you what we will face in the likelihood that it comes down to bullets. I have some Ideas of how to play mind games of our own. they are used to our very visible opposition. they expect us to show up at town hall meetings and to send hundred of thousands of emails, they expect us to continue making it easy to see and read what we are doing. that is the bulk of their intel. STOP. don't show a presence. let them think we have given up. our opinion means nothing anyway .they will not change their votes because we say so. if anything the media spins us to look like idiots . that makes the undecided lean toward the status quo. When I see a spider I don't worry about it but if it disappears and I can't find it , it worries me to death because I don't know where it went or what it's up to or when it it might land on my neck and take a big bite. If we suddenly disappear they will freak out.
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Post by busboy on Aug 8, 2009 18:14:27 GMT -5
".they will not change their votes because we say so. if anything the media spins us to look like idiots . that makes the undecided lean toward the status quo." Some notes from the Independent American Party: "Most in Congress have no strong convictions about Freedom, let alone the Second Amendment. They do however have extremely strong feeling about being re-elected. They know that the people back home want to keep the ability to resist criminals of all types. The pro-Freedom vote on the Coburn Amendment of over 65% indicates that Congress will not bow down to the President when they feel their re-election is at stake. " "The promoters of Socialism and big government are very active in Washington. The number of bills which increase the size and scope of government is mind boggling. The number of pro-Freedom members of Congress appears to be between 10 and 15%. (equal percentage on the anti-Freedom side as well) About 70 to 80% of the member of Congress have no strong ideology and are only dedicated to being re-elected. This weakness in ideology can be turned into a strength for Freedom. When this group in Congress feels enough pressure from their constituents, they will almost always vote the way that they believe will insure their re-election. Constituent communication with Congress is the key to restoring our Freedom.During the last six years of studying Congressional voting patterns and working to influence Congress toward a more pro-Freedom stance we have learned several things. 1. The great majority in Congress would support Freedom causes if they felt that they had support from their District. Not feeling that support, they fall prey to the wiles of the lobbyists and special interests with their ever ready money and support.2. From 50 to 100 people per Congressional District contacting Congress at least once a week will move the majority in Congress towards a pro-Freedom voting record. A study done last year in the House indicated 280 members voted at least 40% pro-Freedom. That is over 64% of the House and this 64% is very susceptible to the pro-Freedom message. Will you help us recruit some of the 50 to 100 people in your Congressional District who will contact Congress at least once a week with pre-written emails and faxes? Talk to your friends and neighbors asking them to take part in the Committee of Correspondence. The average Congressional District has over 600,000 people in it, and there are many thousands of people fed up with Washington, but just don't know what to do. Ask them to send a pre-written fax or email weekly to help restore our Freedom. The blessing of Freedom for us and our children are incalculable and the alternative is inconceivable." You can see their web site here: www.usiap.org/Again, the focus needs to shift from the Feds to the States. The States are feeling a HUGE pressure to preserve themselves and to work for Pro-Freedom legislation within their states, CONTRARY to the Feds. Our State level Legislators are, in 37+ states, going to bat for Freedom. If they do not get the support they need, the encouragement they deserve and at times the urging they will require, they will simply assume there is no support for Liberty and fold. Look at the results of the "Town Halls". Yes the media and fascist are picking on these folks, but for goodness sakes, don't you see that as a success? And it that just "too much to bear" for Freedom? If so, then there is nothing which will make people 'take their muskets off the wall and face the King's troops' Who NEEDS out support: 1) Your fellow Americans who see the course of this nation as bad, want to do something to change it, but feel they are alone or don't know what to do. 2) Your State and federal legislators who may want to do the right thing, but lack the support back home to stand against the special interests or their own party. 3) "disappearing" is exactly what the fascist want from you. When the press or representatives vilify you, they are trying to get you to go away, they care little about worrying about you if you shut up. When your rep send you a worthless form letter, he is TRYING to discourage you from sending more letters. Take the "form letter" responses as a positive sign, you are punching them in a sensitive area, they want to not recognize it and move on to your NASCAR watching and fishing. "Nothing to see here peasant, get back to your cake and entertainment tonight." 4) The only way Freedom and Liberty will be sustained and returned to this nation is if all those good, right thinking folks, wake up and speak up. Sitting it out, as a strategy or out of apathy is a sure fired way to get more oppression. "Water the Tree of Liberty"? Well, you also have to feed it and nurture it, prop it up some. Your fellow Americans are starting to wake up, this is NOT the time to "hide as a strategy". There are old people taking to the Town Halls and literally getting their butts kicked......they need your support. The reps in your state and in D.C. have to get a spinal infusion, if you are going to contribute to giving it to them, then who? If you think your reps are "out of touch", then how is "hiding" going to help get them in touch? For goodness sakes, you going to let what CNN or Nancy Pelosi, or King Obama says about you hurt your feelings and make you scurry away? These thugs and bullies will only understand being stood up to. We have seen how they ALL SQUEEL when they actually are confronted by the serfs. Now imagine what would happen if your rep, with the confidence that he is backed from the people back home, can do to these bullies? It is starting to happen NOW, we need to keep the heat on and turn it up more, not turn it down.
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Post by brocktownsend on Aug 8, 2009 18:22:29 GMT -5
Good post, and I'll send it around.
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Post by Michael Downing on Aug 8, 2009 22:05:02 GMT -5
"Oh no, don't misunderstand my statements. I am not all daisies and butterflies. yesterday I was set to destroy everything and everyone on earth. ( I paid $90 for 4 bags of food at the grocery store). but our situation is what it is. you mentioned negating superior firepower and people living in caves. That's my point. is living in a cave , deprived of your normal freedoms , any different than living in a prison ?"
Good to have you back Bob but I for one would have to say that living in a cave deprived of my normal freedoms by my own choice in a fight for freedom would definitely be better than living in a prison by the choice of the enemy.
Busboy your optimism is a laudable but for all of that I believe that we will have a national health care bill passed shortly after the recess and even though it will be watered down it will be one more step towards the point of no return. Everything the Obaanation cursade wnats will get passed even if only in a watered down version. I plan on attending at least two town hall meetings and I will continue to do what I can within the system, but the time is coming ever closer to when there will be no turning back. I hope I am wrong but even with all the uproar from We The People on this recess I am afraid our "public servants" (enough of a majority) will go back and march lock step as they pass a version of government health care. They will then proudly tell the people that they fought to restrict the governments reach into our lives.
I do not disagree that we need to keep up the pressure our representatives. In fact in the 10th here we have a decent man in Patrick McHenry and I am going to as many town hall meetings as I can to support him as much as to speak. You never know when the Obama thugs may show up.
Bottom line is that I have become convinced that we will see a Civil War here in America and we are not too far off. If the slide into the Socialistic/Facist hell continues and in 2010 we do not show a significant pull back from the edge then we will may not get another chance in 2012. Fight them at the ballot box and keep you options open. I hope I am wrong but I am afraid the time is coming.
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