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Post by finnian on Jul 14, 2009 5:19:46 GMT -5
Busboy, I see your point. A majority of Americans just elected a Marxist however, so it is hard for me to have faith in them. Educating the masses is a requirement for a people to remain free just as Thomas Jefferson reminded us. While we have a Department of Education however, our chances of reversing the waves of ignorant sheep stampeding to the polls for the latest puppet will never come to an end.
We also often end up with two bad choices in elections. I hate voting for the lesser evil. Our government's election system was setup on purpose to severely limit third party attempts as well.
I agree about the state and local focus. It is where our battle needs the most attention!
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Post by maggiew65 on Jul 14, 2009 23:46:33 GMT -5
A strong movement is underway. Several states have started sovereignty measurements in their state governments. Some states have told the federal government to butt out. Such as Montana and Oklahoma. Texas' governor has suggested in public speaking of seceding. Other states are following with resolutions and measures informing the federal government they've gone too far.
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Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 15, 2009 8:49:12 GMT -5
Finnian, The department of education was created and has been run by those who have no interest in a free society. The basic fact is there are a very few who are willing to pay attention so long as they can continue getting their regular TV fix. This is why the ballot box is so ineffective. There are too many voters who have no interest in discussion of government outside of sound bites fed to them by marxists and fascists. When this is the case, you end up with incumbents being returned to office at high rates, because the uninformed go out and vote, having been told that it is their civic duty. Who do they vote for? "Well, this guy must be ok, he has been doing the job!" They don't really know who or what they are voting for. I used to not be in favor of term limits, until I realized that We the People are too self absorbed, and that is the essence of democracy, mob rule. It is just another form of tyranny. If you hate voting for the lesser of two evils, don't do it. If you do, you remain part of the problem, like those who won't vote for a third party candidate because they have been told that they have no chance of winning. It is the old "throwing away your vote" lie perpetuated, or maybe that is perpetrated by the Republican/Democrat union.
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Post by finnian on Jul 15, 2009 9:23:18 GMT -5
Right, I agree Echo. However, I've researched the presidential election process, and third party runs are not the way to go. Our Electoral College system is imperfect but needed, and one of the imperfections is limiting the fight to two parties. This came up in a recent Facebook discussion, and basically I did not know how the Electoral College worked before posting what I did. I was suggesting we should be able to get a third party candidate to get 34% of the vote. Well, even if they did, it would not matter. You need 270 electoral votes to win. In a fixed system where Democrat A and Republican B are basically clones of each other on all of the major issues, those two would pool their electoral votes together to beat any third party run. This is at least how I understand the system.
Our best hope for the office of president at least is to take over one of the existing parties with people who will defend our constitutional and inalienable rights.
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Post by monkymate on Jul 15, 2009 15:37:30 GMT -5
Kinda wakes you up when you read how the system has been rigged towards the two party system. I think the only way to get a party behind us is to just start getting incumbents voted out of office. The Primaries are going to be the best place for that and we need to back strong constitutionalists candidates. Join your local Tea Parties and other movements like 9-12. Make your voices heard. Keep calling the bums in office and telling them what you think. We have a much better chance of effecting change at the Primary level than we do at an election.
Later, Monkymate
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Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 15, 2009 21:58:33 GMT -5
Amendment 12 - Choosing the President, Vice-President. Ratified 6/15/1804
The Electors shall meet in their respective states, and vote by ballot for President and Vice-President, one of whom, at least, shall not be an inhabitant of the same state with themselves; they shall name in their ballots the person voted for as President, and in distinct ballots the person voted for as Vice-President, and they shall make distinct lists of all persons voted for as President, and of all persons voted for as Vice-President and of the number of votes for each, which lists they shall sign and certify, and transmit sealed to the seat of the government of the United States, directed to the President of the Senate;
The President of the Senate shall, in the presence of the Senate and House of Representatives, open all the certificates and the votes shall then be counted;
The person having the greatest Number of votes for President, shall be the President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed; and if no person have such majority, then from the persons having the highest numbers not exceeding three on the list of those voted for as President, the House of Representatives shall choose immediately, by ballot, the President. But in choosing the President, the votes shall be taken by states, the representation from each state having one vote; a quorum for this purpose shall consist of a member or members from two-thirds of the states, and a majority of all the states shall be necessary to a choice. And if the House of Representatives shall not choose a President whenever the right of choice shall devolve upon them, before the fourth day of March next following, then the Vice-President shall act as President, as in the case of the death or other constitutional disability of the President.
The person having the greatest number of votes as Vice-President, shall be the Vice-President, if such number be a majority of the whole number of Electors appointed, and if no person have a majority, then from the two highest numbers on the list, the Senate shall choose the Vice-President; a quorum for the purpose shall consist of two-thirds of the whole number of Senators, and a majority of the whole number shall be necessary to a choice. But no person constitutionally ineligible to the office of President shall be eligible to that of Vice-President of the United States
This is the revised method of choosing the President as prescribed in the 12th amendment. The constitution nowhere mandates 270 electoral votes to win, nor does it limit to two choices, though it does limit to three if it comes down to a House vote. Constitution 1, Facebook 0
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Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 15, 2009 22:00:22 GMT -5
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Post by therev on Jul 17, 2009 8:45:18 GMT -5
It seems to me that the real point is largely being missed here. With all the talk of the "voting" process, the "electoral college" and so on, it's plain to see that there are entirely too many good Patriots on here who still believe they have a vote. Don't be fooled, gentlemen. Voting does nothing but perpetuate the illusion of the "democratic process".
We should be fighting on our terms, not playing the age-old parlor game of vote, demonstrate, protest. They don't care how we feel, what we think, or what happens to us. PERIOD. So what if we've "won" a few here or there? Have the gears of tyranny been reversed? The border is still wide open and amnesty is on the way. Their agenda continues, unabated. PERIOD.
The ballot box is a waste of time, folks. It's not he who votes that counts, it's he who counts the votes (a paraphrased quote, from Stalin, I believe). Besides, even if our votes counted, do any of you believe we have 'till 2010-2012 to change anything? (Remember, the FEMA National Level Exercise starts on the 27th, and it includes "mock" searches, detainments and analysis of "suspected domestic terrorists".).
Face the facts, gentlemen. Playing their game doesn't work -- not anymore. Stronger tactics are required. PERIOD.
The Rev
PS - Foreign troops are to be included during the FEMA NLE, by the way. Just thought you should know that.
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Post by busboy on Jul 17, 2009 14:51:15 GMT -5
Some of you are nibbling around the edges of the solution, but the conditioned focus upon the federal government, and the President's position specifically, it derailing your thoughts.
All the woes you can point to in the federal government are not 'causes', they are SYMPTOMS. We have the Department of Education, of all the other crap that the fed shoves at us, solely because of the ignorance of "We the People".
The solution is not "third party", as has been explained above, and because it returns the focus back to the national level, instead of where it belongs, on the state level.
Your state representatives dictate how your 'Electors' are selected within your state, this is where the power of the Electoral system comes from. We change our states, we impact the Electoral system has upon the federal government.
The Primaries are indeed where our power lays!
The "majority" who elected the Marxist in Chief are far from a real majority. 62 million? How many gun owners in this nation? 60-80 million. It is a lack of education which would allow a gun owner to vote for a tin pot like this guy. But again, a symptom, not a cause.
The ignorant exercise their power every 4 years in November. The educated can exercise their power the rest of the time, if they just got off of their cans and became real Americans vs. people who reside in this nation and have lots of talk.
Your states are RIPE FOR THE PICKING!!!!
Your state reps can be easily influenced. You and your fellow State Patriots could take over your state legislature. You can fixed the rigged Electoral system back toward what the Founders wanted.
Your State reps can heavily influence the federal reps in a hurry. The federal reps need the state parties to be successful. We can control the states, thus we can control the fed. Not over night, but hey, we did not get here over night.
Education of our fellow state residents, our family, friends, neighbors and co-workers can do this.
You know that California has had resolutions submitted to have their 54 Electoral votes apportioned by district? You realize this would nearly split their 54 votes down the middle, no longer giving the ultra communist 54 votes head start?
We influence our state, we can influence our nation.
'Stronger tactics'? How about being real Americans, grabbing our balls, doing what the Founders told us we would need to do to maintain and preserve our nation? That would be quite bold and new for the modern day Americans.
And quit the whining and complaining about "rigged" elections and the votes not counting, that is just cry baby, quitter talk for people who are just to lifeless or lazy to actually do something. Go goodness sakes folks! The system we have inherited from our Founders is the best to ever be devised on earth, and some of you want to toss it aside for some Walter Mitty fantasy? The solution is well with in our reach, if we can just put the remote down for a second and get off the couch and go pick it up.
Keep in mind, "Their game" is not the Founders game, nor is it our game. We work the system, as the Founders gave it to us, and we have our nation back, that simple.
Making lame excuses of why we will fail, why they have "rigged" the system, and all that other wasteful non-sense, is just "talk". Bucking up to being a real American, one who is a Doer, not a talker, that is what will make things change for the better.
I know this may be "harsh words", but for a group of folks here, who seem to be dedicated to Liberty and this nation, these words should set you on fire with hope. There is tremendous hope and possibilities for our generation to really change the tide of this country, to put her back on the course our Founders set us upon.
Anyone who is on this "sinking ship", the one with no life boat (what country do we go to if we lose this one?), and they have before them the very tools and power to save the ship and get her back on course, yet choses to only whine and complain.....well, you all can determine for yourselves the usefulness of those inactions.
When your Founders embarked on giving you a Free Nation, they had no "system" to work within, they had no "tools" to utilize for Liberty handed to them. They surely had no guarantees they would be successful, in fact, many of them never saw their success.
Yet we dare stand here, call ourselves their heirs, and act blind and dumb to their sacrifices and gifts to us.
You and 30-50 people in your state level district could OWN that seat. You and 4-5 thousand in your state could OWN your state (in many cases, add some percentages for the very large states).
It will not be easy, but it can be done and done in a very short amount of time!
Ask yourself, would you rather fix the situation in which we find our nation in, or would you rather whine, complain and wait for events to spiral far enough out of control that the Alarm and Muster is our only option? Which nation would you rather pass on to your children, one where the course is solidly back to what the Founders envisioned, or one which is embattled in a physical struggle for mere survival, not the Freedom and Liberty we have been handed?
We can FIX this nation and the woes we see, but it will take some serious effort and action. The good news, it will be a far lesser amount of effort and action that our Founders had to go through to give it to us.
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Post by Michael Downing on Jul 17, 2009 21:36:27 GMT -5
Busboy the nation we have is not what the Founders envisioned but we did not heed their warnings so for 200 years our Liberites and Freedoms have erroded away. Can it be fixed within the system? Absolutely but can it be fixed in time to save not only us but our children and grandchildren from a life of servitude, that is the real question. What has taken 200 years to pervert must begin to radically turn around in 2010 or the game is up. To turn this around we do not have the 200 years it took us to get here. I agree we must put every effort into 2010 but that will be the line in the sand.
After 2010 we will know if we can know if we can turn around the evolution that has robbed us of out Liberty through the system. All we need is proof with honest effort we can turn this around. If we can regain the Senate and the House then we can begin the slow march back. If in 2010 we can not win then the answer to evolution is the only one we have revolution.
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Post by therev on Jul 17, 2009 21:39:49 GMT -5
Busboy: Do us all -- or at least me -- a favor and stop talking about having the balls to do what the Founding Fathers did, and then continue to push the "peaceful solution/political activism" rhetoric. Voting is ineffective. Demonstrations, by and large, are ineffective. Protests are ineffective.
Everyone on this board knows what IS effective, but we're intelligent and tactful enough to know what to say and when to say it. To my mind (and the Founders minds) those who still believe in "the system" are the ones "nibbling around the edges" of the real solution.
By the way, don't say "rigged elections" in quotes. There's video on YouTube right now of court proceedings where a programmer ADMITS AND TESTIFIES to writing an undetectable vote rigging program. It's not a theory, it's a fact. Voting is an illusion. Emailing, writing letters, marching with picket signs and organized "Tea Parties" are an illusion. The largest impact any of them have is to give the participants a sense of accomplishment -- and it's FALSE!
Look, I understand perfectly what you're saying. But the tactics of which you speak should've been followed at least two election cycles back. This administration -- illegitimate as it is -- is running full bore, balls out toward despotism. And Despots don't care what their slaves want, think, or feel.
You asked if we'd "...rather fix the situation in which we find our nation in, or would you rather whine, complain and wait for events to spiral far enough out of control that the Alarm and Muster is our only option?"
Well, I can't speak for anyone else here, but allow me to answer your question, with a question:
What magical spell has been cast upon the US Government in recent days that reversed the gears of tyranny, reinstated the US Constitution, the Bill of Rights, Habeas Corpus, Posse Commitatus, and caused the complete restoration of our Constitutional Republic? Because UNLESS THAT'S WHAT HAS HAPPENED; DECADES OF VOTING, PROTESTS AND DEMONSTRATIONS HAVEN'T CHANGED JACK!
Stronger tactics? You tell me, brother. You tell me. 2010 is a Band-Aid on cancer, and a byopsy is long overdue.
(My apologies to the Mods if any of this was out of line. I intend no disrespect.).
Sincerely,
The Rev
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Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 17, 2009 22:20:51 GMT -5
Hear, hear Rev. I recall Claire Wolfe writing some time back "Don't vote! It only encourages them." I skipped over the long drawn out words of Busboy and read the responses instead. My wife had already skimmed through it and told me that it was nothing new except some references to previous posts including one or more of mine. I just can't reread the same thing over and over. Not that he doesn't make some sound points, but his level of optimism is just not warranted in my estimation. Commander, when you speak of regaining the Congress, do you mean Republicans, or patriots? There is a very clear distinction.
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Post by busboy on Jul 18, 2009 1:15:28 GMT -5
Hearts and Minds folks. "Get Tough" all you want, but until the Hearts and Minds of the American people are for Liberty and Freedom, your tough talk and even tough actions will amount to nothing, not even a foot note in history.
The reason you all are in despair over the course of the nation is that you are looking to Washington for your answers. The answers are with "We the People" and the states. This is where the Founders envisioned the controlling forces over the fed.
"Don't Vote", how stupid can that be? It is a (note, singular) tool which is available to you. Your idiot neighbor or brother in law know enough to vote. You, being smarter than them, know you MUST not only vote, but work to get good people, your people, on the ballots in the primaries, on the other side of the tickets and you need to vote.
Voting is just a small portion of what needs to happen. Education is the primary job of real Americans.
You check out of the Founders system, then you cease to have any hope, then you just wait for _______ (you fill in the blank, but it is all bad).
There are very positive things happening across this nation: -Many states passing laws/resolutions against the Real ID act. -The illegal Immigration bill squashed -41 states with Conceal Carry laws, contrary to the Feds desire. -34 States passing/working on 10th Amendment resolutions -Tea Parties The people are waking up.
Unfortunately, they are just to ignorant of what this nation was intended to be, to understand how far off course we are and which direction they must go to get back on course.
The American Citizen has lost their understanding of what "taking action" is. They have lost their knowledge of what being the owner of this nation means. Most Americans are acting like subjects, not owners.
Tough talk is worthless, it will take actions to fix this nation. If peaceful actions, in line with those the Founders gave us will fix this nation, then why not put the action there? Why do nothing and let the country spiral further into the depths?
No magic, just applied Constitution is what can fix this nation, and it can do so rather quickly, if it is the will of the People. So your next question should be, how do we get the will of the People to be for Freedom and Liberty?
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Post by busboy on Jul 18, 2009 1:48:49 GMT -5
States removing the huge power base out of D.C.
This process is in motion and will solve many of the problems we face today.
The Presidential election was rigged.....oh the shock and horror. Some Senate elections were rigged....oh my, the despair.
How about your state representative? His election rigged? Highly doubt it, ain't no reason to, you have bowed to the "King" in D.C., so those who would rig elections only have to fiddle with a few.
Your state legislature can put an end to voter fraud, election fraud, wasteful federal spending, federal tyranny, illegal federal activities....if you just empower them.
This is where your "letters" can really have an impact. Why in the world do you think that 34 states are looking (some passed) legislation which is in the face of the federal government? Not because they think they will be given more federal funds or a cabinet position. It is because they feel it is the correct thing to do and they have received enough public support to be emboldened to embark on their obligation to reign in the fed.
If our state legislators felt supported and "backed up" by the people of their state, they would pull the federal reigns even harder.
If this health care bill passes, the states will have the opportunity to nullify it in their state. This will cause a rushing of quality medical people to their state and a boom in the medical business in their state. Much like the Canadians come here for real health care, the states which snub their noses as this federal health program will be those "medical safe havens" for the rest.
The People have a great potential of wielding great power through their states and the timing is getting very close. 2010 is an opportunity for We the People to stack the deck more in our favor......or we can sit around, whining about "rigged elections" and how we are so unfortunate to live in this country where we have no power or control over our destiny.
There again, that darn "peaceful" measures to actually fix the problem....
What is it about the "peaceful solution/political activism" which so offends some? Is it because it may actually work and preserve the nation and spare our children from a civil war?
Don't tell me it won't work. Where it has actually been applied, it has worked rather well. Unfortunately, there is still a lack of understanding and desire on the part of most people to actually attempt to apply them......yet they will speak openly about trying to "apply harsher measures". It is all talk, until someone actually does something, they are part of the problem. "I won't do the easy, but I will do the most difficult"....puzzling perspective.
Ironically, the "peaceful" approach does not take away the 'tougher measures' approach. It may actually work, at worst it will not change a thing. If this be the case, then righteousness and justification is on our side, not to mention the possibility of gaining more like minded people along the way. Sadly, the "tougher measures" will eliminate all peaceful approaches, and ironically, destroy the nation and Constitution which so many claim to want to preserve.
The cure is within our grasps, your handlers want you to think it is hopeless. You can fall for their BS, or you can listen to your Founders. The Founders told you what to do if you find yourself in this situation, but your handlers want to paralyze you, as they know you hold the ultimate power. Keep "We the People" ignorant, lazy and apathetic, you can get away with most anything....and they have.
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Post by therev on Jul 18, 2009 10:54:29 GMT -5
I guess it's time to apply the famous line from "Cool Hand Luke": "Some men, ya just can't reach!" Such is the case, apparently, with Busboy. Although the situation has been explained several times over, he continues to want to "work within the system", or -- more to the point -- perpetuate the illusion that "peaceful political activism" will change the course of history. It never has, to any significant degree, and it never will. It's kind of like the pacifist, PC philosophy of a woman using mace, or car keys against a determined attacker, when a .357 (or larger) is the real answer.
Don't get me wrong, those who choose the practice of "peaceful political activism" are useful to those of us who prefer the much more effective method of "dynamic social reform", at least for the time being. They keep a lot of bureauRATS busy and distracted, and keep the illusion of "normalcy" going. Perhaps, rather than argue or engage in the futility of trying to "reach" these kinds of people, we should simply recognize them as just another element that works in conjunction with our own efforts -- both of which are working within the scope of the Grand Strategy of Restoration of our Constitutional Republic.
I would like to hear the comments from a few "small war" leaders throughout history after reading Busboy's posts. Considering the entire philosophy posits a soft attack against a hard target, I'm sure their comments would be rather interesting.
Political graffiti on the walls of a fort never accomplished as much as a satchel charge. And it never will.
I'm done with this thread. Y'all have fun.
The Rev
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Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 18, 2009 11:16:23 GMT -5
One item that can't be overlooked, is the fact that at this point, We the People don't actually own the country anymore. It has been mortgaged, and politicians at all levels, when pressed by the mortgage holders disregard the people and bow to the will of those holding the purse strings. We don't have handlers as claimed above, we have slave drivers. And, just as with Germany in the thirties, most of the people are going to bow to the tyrant who promises economic security. The majority of those I have spoken with refuse to open their eyes to the horrible truth of our state of affairs. The only thing left of the founding fathers country are their words of inspiration. I recall scoffing at a claim a while back about the United States no longer being a constitutional nation, but rather a corporation of which we are little more than property. I have not fully accepted this, but I see evidence supporting the claim, and can no longer dismiss it out of hand. In the end, my fight is for the freedom and liberty of those who believe in very limited government and are willing to purchase it for their fellow patriots with their own lives. Those who refuse to do battle on their own behalf will have my pity, but I will not go to extraordinary lengths to provide them the security they believed they could purchase with their liberty. As Ben Franklin said, they deserve neither. And quite possibly, those of us who have allowed such ignorance and cowardice to become the norm in this country, deserve no better. The goal should be to achieve critical mass in support of freedom and liberty before being pressed into having to take up arms. I usually try to steer people to sources of information on economics and personal liberty. As an extemporaneous speaker, I often take off down rabbit trails that persuade few to change course. But sources such as mises.org, lewrockwell.com, thesurvivalpodcast.com, etc are more on message and effective than I am.
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Post by brocktownsend on Jul 18, 2009 11:38:16 GMT -5
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Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 18, 2009 17:31:55 GMT -5
Vox is good. He even conducts voxiversity, where a text such as Rothbard's "America's Great Depression" is studied and discussed, then tested on. I haven't participated in those, but do occasionally post there under the same name as here. It has been a while since my last post.
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Post by brocktownsend on Jul 18, 2009 18:40:42 GMT -5
Vox is good. He even conducts voxiversity, where a text such as Rothbard's "America's Great Depression" is studied and discussed, then tested on. I haven't participated in those, but do occasionally post there under the same name as here. It has been a while since my last post. I wouldn't attempt to match wits with him.
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Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 18, 2009 20:10:22 GMT -5
Too bad he has opted to take up residence in Italy. We could use someone of his intellectual capability visibly stirring things up in DC. I guess we work with what we have.
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Post by busboy on Jul 21, 2009 0:29:34 GMT -5
I will agree with the rev on one point, some just won't learn.
Sadly, the ignorance of folks (willful or otherwise) to their duties and obligations to preserve the Constitution leads to the despair which gets displayed in these conversations.
Despair and defeat is where those who would take your Liberties want you to live. They know to allow you Hope is to bring on their own failure or worse.
And again, at the risk of being branded a repeater: Those who will not do the easy things to retain their Liberties will never step out when only the hard things are left.
"If you will not fight for right when you can easily win without blood shed; if you will not fight when your victory is sure and not too costly; you may come to the moment when you will have to fight with all the odds against you and only a precarious chance of survival. There may even be a worse case. You may have to fight when there is no hope of victory, because it is better to perish than to live as slaves." Winston Churchill
I submit, if you won't do what you can today, you won't do what you "have to do" tomorrow.
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Post by glen2gs on Jul 22, 2009 20:25:31 GMT -5
I just got an Email from The Southwest Region Point of Contact....Which said, in part...
...", this is NOT an organization for rebellion, sedition or subversion of the US government or other illegal or unmoral pursuits, nor is it a militia. I'm sure you already knew that, but we feel it's important to reinforce that idea."
I thought that the "Purpose" was, for example, a response to Government Confiscation of Arms...and a resistance to same.
How is that NOT Rebellion?
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Post by therev on Jul 23, 2009 8:31:51 GMT -5
It isn't rebellion, Glen. It's obedience to the Constitution, and defiance of tyranny, which are both duties of any American citizen. So, you see, it isn't rebellion at all. ; )
Also: "And again, at the risk of being branded a repeater: Those who will not do the easy things to retain their Liberties will never step out when only the hard things are left." - Busboy
Exactly, but there's a qualifier in there which has already been discussed ad infinitum: If what we're doing won't retain any liberties, then it's not worth doing and is an irrelevant exercise in futility, which serves only to waste time, energy and resources. Researching Bruce Lee's philosphy on "The Economy of Motion" might help you to better understand, but I'll try, once again, using an analogy from my childhood.
If you put your hands against a block wall and push as hard as you can, until your arms give out and you're completely spent, then you've accomplished nothing but wasting time, energy, and effort. You've done NO WORK, and the wall remains. But if you spend the same amount of time using a 15-lb sledge hammer on that same wall, you're accomplishing something. You're chipping away at the task, and making progress.
So Busboy, and those who think like him -- that political activism changes things in the least -- can keep pushing against the wall and accomplishing nothing, because the bloody wall doesn't give a shite.
As for myself, and those like me. We'll be grabbing sledge hammers, and getting something DONE.
The Rev
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Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 23, 2009 9:13:00 GMT -5
I thought that the "Purpose" was, for example, a response to Government Confiscation of Arms...and a resistance to same.
How is that NOT Rebellion?[/quote]
It is rebellion, but the distinction I hope he is making is the question of who initiates the action of violence. Just because the government does not display their weapons when they first begin requiring people to hand over theirs, does not make it non-violent. The threat of force is implicit in their demand of compliance. I'm sure the regional POC understands this and wished only to reinforce that we do not advocate rushing into violent conflict until we are given no choice. We can use our numbers as an instrument of intimidation, which translates into using implied force against implied force. It is important to gather support from as broad a base as possible. This is why we wish to delay engaging the enemy. We are waiting for reinforcements. We certainly can't call in an air strike, so we have to make do.
Make noise, draw attention to the abuses of power, make our plight crystal clear to those you meet throughout the day. Live to fight another day. I believe that day is coming soon enough. The people of our nation have been slumbering far too long. Trust has been placed with those who deserve scorn. This must be reversed if we are to leave to our posterity a nation where they can live knowing and enjoying liberty.
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Post by avordvet on Jul 23, 2009 9:25:47 GMT -5
Move not unless you see an advantage; use not your troops unless there is something to be gained; fight not unless the position is critical. If it is to your advantage, make a forward move; if not, stay where you are. - Sun Tzu
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Post by 2ncrca on Jul 23, 2009 9:37:41 GMT -5
There is no assurance that the same people recalled would not reappear, or at least some close facsimile, in some future election. The utopianists will continue to vote them in and the problem will not go away. It is only a matter of time with the help of the education system with reinforcement from the sympathetic news/entertainment media in this country before everyone graduating from the private and public school systems through college level will be well indoctrinated in the "superior" qualities of Marxist socialism. The problem is too deeply embedded to be subject to just recalling congressmen, judges and presidents.
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Post by georgiaowl on Jul 23, 2009 9:39:36 GMT -5
I disagree with the idea that "political activism" doesn't change things. If you don't think 50 years of liberal, democrat party political activism didn't change a thing, you haven't been paying attention. It's mostly how we got where we are today.
Not only that, but a person can insult patriots who are trying their best to reverse what the leftists have done with their political activism, by saying we're beating our heads agaisnt said wall. In the end, we may be....but if political activism turns it around, how much better off will we be for the effort?
It can change everything. I give you...the current administration, as an example of where 50 years(or more) of "political activism" has changed this country for the worse.
While you're waiting for the time to buy all those sledge hammers, perhaps you could pick up a sign, a microphone, a blog, a seat on your city council, etc. and join those of us who are trying to keep you from needing them.
Just my .02 - no offense meant.
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Post by busboy on Jul 23, 2009 23:15:37 GMT -5
Excellent post MG!
The power of We the People to affix change to our favor is HUGE, if we just use it as the Founders gave it to us.
The continued desire to step over the easy for the difficult (which many of those who advocate such on the internet will never do either), is just a contributing cause of our plight in this nation. We have a become a nation of non-Doers, and the politicians recognize that, thus they feel the need to bow to the vocal minority which seeks power and collectivism.
34 states with 10th Amendment Resolutions, one degree or another. 41 States with Shall issue CCW Many states with resolutions against Real ID. Many states passing their own Firearms laws, contrary to ATF Many states passing their own illegal immigration laws, contrary to the feds More people waking up and the "Poles" for the pres and congress sliding More people seeking leadership and resolutions, illustrated by the Tea Parties and 9-12 groups
If (admittedly a large if at this point) the American People can be jolted off of their couches, into real action, not just lip service, then this nation can be turned around very quickly, less than 4 years.
The MG is spot on with the incrementalism of the Left and how they have taking some much away and gained so much power. However, fortunate for us, once a person is truly woken up, they seldom go back to sleep, so we only have to convince them once. Also, getting this nation to again value Liberty is not that tough of a sell.
No one is saying we do those things which can turn this country around before needing "stronger measures" in exchange for any future need or ability to enact stronger measures, but as MG points out, "if political activism turns it around, how much better off will we be for the effort? "
I don't discount the possibility there are forces within this nation who are willing to try to use force to take our country away from us. I am saying they have not done that yet, and we can regain our nation without force (in fact, it is the only way we can regain our nation). If a foreign, usurping power tries force to steal the nation, then they have set their stage, we will be forced to dance on it with them. But until then, we have the proper tools to fix the nation, again, if we actually want to.
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Post by themachine on Jul 24, 2009 3:53:00 GMT -5
So far, there have been some interesting suggestions on possible resolutions to our nation's present dilemma, as expressed throughout these six pages. I personally favor working within the Founder's--and ultimately our--system of government, as outlined by the Constitution. I know many say "the system is obviously broken and beyond repair"; well I have to disagree. The Founders assembled a fine-tuned machine (system), that if properly maintained, will serve the owners well. The fault does not lie with the system, but rather, the negligence to follow the instruction and maintenance manual. The system is not broken, more like malfunctioning, since the owners have allowed incompetent mechanics to do the maintenance; defective parts being substituted for good ones; unnecessary and dangerous components installed; and the owners obliged by paying the bill. The end result is a classic "clunker"; an accident waiting to happen, or possibly a death trap. We still have the availability of qualified workers, proper tools, and a repair manual to get this "clunker" in shape. Heck, we even have 50 repair shops nationwide to do the work in. Maybe we should give the ol' gal another chance, before throwing her into the scrap heap. I've heard many say "they don't build them like they used to", and I tend to agree. The same reasoning can be applied to the Tree of Liberty. At one time, this rarest of species required fertilization with blood to develop a root system in American soil. Once established and firmly rooted, this resilient tree needs no more than occasional watering and pruning for it to flourish. It's mature root system can now easily draw essential nutrients from the soil, allowing resistance to disease and the elements. A caretaker is still required in times of drought, and when crooked or broken branches need trimmed, to maintain the fruitfulness and beauty of the tree. The Tree of Liberty and it's caretakers have evolved into a system of mutual benefit. At no time, would the caretaker ever think of cutting the tree down. What could ever be found to replace it? Obviously, neither one of these systems are self-supporting. Both require continual oversight and periodic maintenance, to receive any benefit. The same applies to our government, for when all it's owners (We The People) abandon it, the system dies with us. Is this the way we should honor the Founders, by abandoning the very system of self-government that they signed their death warrants to establish? Aside from the items that 'busboy' made reference to... "34 states with 10th Amendment Resolutions, one degree or another. 41 States with Shall issue CCW Many states with resolutions against Real ID. Many states passing their own Firearms laws, contrary to ATF Many states passing their own illegal immigration laws, contrary to the feds More people waking up and the "Poles" for the pres and congress sliding More people seeking leadership and resolutions, illustrated by the Tea Parties and 9-12 groups" this administration's health care policy, open immigration plan, carbon tax agenda, and multiplicity of assaults on gun owners, have all been recently stalled indefinitely, via working within the "broken" system. We still have much work to do, but I'll stick to the system with a proven track record, a Constitutional Republic. As for those speculators wanting to test other methods, such as throwing rocks through windows: www.nolanchart.com/article6657.html , have at it. Dept. of Homeland Security is always looking for fuel to feed their "Right Wing Extremest" fire. Another trap used by those who hate Liberty, is the Left vs. Right paradigm...it's a sham. There are those who accept and follow Constitutional mandate, and those that don't. This premise transcends all political variants. It's been said "you don't know what you've got till it's gone". When it applies to our system of government, I would rather not find out. May the Tree of Liberty stand tall and live on, through "We The People".
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Post by balddragn on Jul 24, 2009 23:23:32 GMT -5
LISTEN TO BUSBOY!
We have the means to change the course of this country without bloodshed, without loosing everything our forefathers fought and died for. And remember they exhausted EVERY means at their disposal before taking it to the next level. We need to follow their example. That is the way to honor their sacrifice fighting for our freedoms and their brilliance in creating the Constitution to keep that freedom.
Everybody wants to blame somebody else and the politicians are the easy targets. But they aren't the problem. The problem is Apathy and Ignorance. The politicians don’t have the balls to go against the will of the public IF the public were to speak up.
How many of us have written our elected representatives so often they know us by name? How hard is it to write a letter every day? If that is beyond our ability then the rest is way beyond our capacity.
How many of us know what is even happening in DC on a daily basis. I’m not talking about the closed door sessions, I’m talking about the daily grind of government.
Bottom line - The system is not broke, hell it's hardly being used.
If you want to make a difference teach!
Teach all those you know why they NEED to contact their representatives, OFTEN. Help them write the letters if you have to.
That's the easy part, it only requires that each of us take the responsibly that is ours. If the public won't change, the government will only get worse.
Face it folks, it's our fault. We The People. We let us down when we let the politicians off the hook and reelected those that would not follow our will. It happened because of Ignorance and Apathy.
The good new is because we are the ones who didn't live up to our responsibilities we can change it. This right here, the Alarm and Muster is a good start, but there needs to be more. Look around, you are closer to the answer than you think. Find a way to teach people what you now know. It's on our shoulders, We The People to need teach each other what it is to be an American. We need to participate in our own future.
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