|
Post by busboy on Jul 6, 2009 9:09:29 GMT -5
The "system" is not broken. The problem is that the owners are not insisting that the system be utilized.
I do not attribute our current trend/direction of our nation to just plain ignorance on the part of the "representatives", in fact, they are quite clever. See, they understand that We the People are no longer exercising your proper position at "Owners" of this nation, thus they do bow to the de facto owners, those who do leverage their influence over them.
The notion put forth by many, some here, is that 'I wrote a letter', (maybe several) and it didn't work, thus the system is broken. This is a false conclusion. The system will function perfectly, and has in many occasions, if the owners just apply the system.
"the impact of spilled blood will have a longer lasting effect on all sides than a peaceful agreement between adversaries"
Who's blood?
How dare you or anyone else speak of 'spilling blood' in this nation. You and your neighbors send some no good, low life sack of crap to D.C., then neglect to give him the instructions and directions on how you want him to act. You neglect to hold him accountable to do his duty as you have directed him. Then you want his blood?
Folks, this is not France, this is not 18th Century Colonial America, this is not some third world tin pot dictatorship. This is our Founders Nation!
Those who refuse to work with the very tools passed on to us by our Founders, then want to, under their same banner, advocate "pain and blood" are not getting it.
First, the first drop of blood will be the end of our nation. Kiss all your fantasies of Liberty good bye, for yourself, your children and the generations to come. The reason is very simple. No matter what the result of the "conflict" (and I believe it would be much more grim than any of us can imagine), the Founder's Nation is gone forever! If the Hearts and Minds of the People of this nation were such that they desired the Founders Nation, we would have it now. So, you abolish the current form of government, namely the Constitution, and the people of this nation, today, will never allow us to go back to it.
And don't think for a moment that the moment the first drop of blood hits our soil that the Constitution will not be the first casualty.
This government is NOT a bunch of tyrants in D.C. running rough shot over a nation of victims! This government is you, your family, your neighbors, and those representatives in D.C. may not be doing what you personally want them doing, but they are doing what "We the People" in general want them to do.
"Cap and Trade", "Government provided Health care", do you think that these are bills being "forced" upon the people of this nation? Hardly, they are being sought after by the people, that is why we get the joy of watching them pass.
We the People are not opposing these bills, just some of the People. The reason you and I will ever be saddled with these monsters is because that is what our neighbors want.
So, you speak of blood, whos? Our neighbors? They are the cause of the problems we have. "I know of no safe depository of the ultimate powers of the society but the people themselves; and if we think them not enlightened enough to exercise their control with a wholesome discretion, the remedy is not to take it from them but to inform their discretion." Thomas Jefferson
Again, the simple, easy fixes lay before us. Do we step over them for the more difficult?
I ask, is it easier to take up arms and inflict pain and shed blood, or convince your neighbors that this nation is theirs and they are responsible for it?
Easier to give up our lives for war, or dedicate time in our current lives to educate and guide others?
Until We the People come to the realization that they can not simply sit at home, maybe vote once every 4 years and complain their way to Liberty, then there is no hope for our nation, regardless of the amount of pain and blood spread around.
For goodness sakes folks, look around you! Look at your circles of travel. How many people do you run into that are gungho about Cap and Trade or Government Health Care? I would say that few of you can point to a "majority" of those around you. Yet, by the simple "act" of sitting on their cans, these same people are allowing these to be swept in.
Waking up and motivating our fellow countrymen is the battle we MUST wage. Any other is to step into a battle already lost.
The Founders did not start a war with England to gain "independence". They had Independence. They did not fight England for Liberty, they had Liberty. They did not engage in war with England with the hope that they could set up a system to give Freedom and Liberty. They knew that they would have Freedom and Liberty, because the "Minds and Hearts" of the American people were for Freedom and Liberty.
It was England that demanded war.
In our case, there is no England. There is only us, and those we send to represent us. If they are letting us down, we have every tool to fix it. They have no tool to wage war on us, thus there is no reason for such in this land.
If war were to come, it would because that is what the hearts and minds of the American people want, and if that is the case, there would be no returning to our Founders Nation, as the hearts and minds of We the People would not allow it.
Make no mistake, I understand there is a battle for this nation. Every generation must engage in it. Unfortunately, several of the latest generations have not maintained this nation in good working order, to pass on to us, so we have more work to do than just pure maintenance, we have some repair to do too. But we must have the Hearts and Minds of our family, friends, neighbors engaged for Liberty. The battle is for their Hearts and Minds.
|
|
|
Post by mountaineer on Jul 6, 2009 18:11:39 GMT -5
The Bail out bills are another example of "We the People" scaring the feds. Same deal, Friday the Bailout was announced. Big deal about Congress setting through the weekend to get a bill for the Pres on Monday. What happened? They got so many calls they had to step back. They had to take time to see what side the calls came down on. Unfortunately, there was not enough on the side of Liberty, the bill got crammed down our throats late the next week. Feinstien said that she received 91k calls about the bailouts. 6k for, and 85k against!* She then said that she would vote for it anyway, because it was the right thing to do. I think the calls did come down on the side of Liberty, but calls weren't enough. If we continue to believe that sitting at home on our cell phones and computers is going to effect change, then we have a rude awakening ahead of us. Sitting here, pretending to participate in the ways they say we should, fall exactly into the plan. Go to a TeaParty, listen to a speaker, feel good about participatory government. Call your Congressperson, it makes a difference. But don't stop paying your taxes, don't march in the streets without permits, don't do anything "radical." Sorry if I come off harsh, but I think we're running out of risk-free alternatives to tyranny. *YouTube Vid: www.youtube.com/watch?v=sZFwRAfkV1g
|
|
|
Post by georgiaowl on Jul 6, 2009 18:47:50 GMT -5
Sorry if I come off harsh, but I think we're running out of risk-free alternatives to tyranny.
As do I. Well said.
|
|
|
Post by brocktownsend on Jul 6, 2009 19:53:39 GMT -5
We need to bide our time. Please see the thread What Rifle Type, second page beginning with the question "Why are you answering this question?"
|
|
|
Post by mountaineer on Jul 6, 2009 22:01:08 GMT -5
Standing up and saying "No" as your guns are confiscated, or you're standing in front on a FEMA Camp, is too late. Biding our time could be the death of us. I'm not asking for a one-man 6 minute Revolution. We need a mass movement; and fast.
|
|
|
Post by brocktownsend on Jul 6, 2009 22:15:44 GMT -5
Standing up and saying "No" as your guns are confiscated, or you're standing in front on a FEMA Camp, is too late. Biding our time could be the death of us. I'm not asking for a one-man 6 minute Revolution. We need a mass movement; and fast. Read this, please. Why is anyone responding to this question? It is no one's business. By indicating your preference you are most likely suggesting what you own, or want to own. I suggest you operate on the principle of "Need To Know.""Because we want to, and do not fear the government. They need to fear the people who allow them to govern. Unless you bought a paperless weapon, the government knows you have it. Why in the world would you hide it? It is legal. It does no good to post under an assumed name, the feds can find anyone that uses a computer as they can trace it immediately. All this secrecy is self defeating. We are free Americans as were my forefathers before me from 1709 on, and they have fought for that freedom in the Revolutionary, the WBTS (We lost that one, and with it the Republic) through Vietnam. They should put that in their pipes and smoke it. The consensus of opinion here is that we shall make ourselves known, so the beast knows we will do what we say, and are a force to be reckoned with. As Mike of Sipsey Street Irregulars stated in his letter to Holden, nothing had better happen to any well known gun advocate. I think the more who make themselves known the better. If they come get me tomorrow, many more people will know about it than before I joined A&M, and I think this is only good. We aren't doing anything illegal, and don't intend to do so, and hope our Republic will be returned to the people through the legislative process -------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- By the way, you underestimate our power. Not just this site, but all the ones connected, and all the individual Americans who are highly pissed off, and this number continues to grow each day. Time is our ally, in this particular instance. I assume you are fully armed, and stocked for whatever may occur.
|
|
|
Post by busboy on Jul 7, 2009 6:41:49 GMT -5
Allow me to share something with you all, from the Independent American Party: (emphasis/bold is mine) SOME CONCERNS The promoters of Socialism and big government are very active in Washington. The number of bills which increase the size and scope of government is mind boggling.
The number of pro-Freedom members of Congress appears to be between 10 and 15%. About 70 to 80% of the member of Congress have no strong ideology and are only dedicated to being re-elected. This weakness in ideology can be turned into a strength for Freedom. When this group in Congress feels enough pressure from their constituents, they will almost always vote the way that they believe will insure their re-election. Constituent communication with Congress is the key to restoring our Freedom.
During the last six years of studying Congressional voting patterns and working to influence Congress toward a more pro-Freedom stance we have learned several things.
1. The great majority in Congress would support Freedom causes if they felt that they had support from their District. Not feeling that support, they fall prey to the wiles of the lobbyists and special interests with their ever ready money and support.
2. From 50 to 100 people per Congressional District contacting Congress at least once a week will move the majority in Congress towards a pro-Freedom voting record. A study done last year in the House indicated 280 members voted at least 40% pro-Freedom. That is over 64% of the House and this 64% is very susceptible to the pro-Freedom message.
Will you help us recruit some of the 50 to 100 people in your Congressional District who will contact Congress at least once a week with pre-written emails and faxes? Talk to your friends and neighbors asking them to take part in the Committee of Correspondence. The average Congressional District has over 600,000 people in it, and there are many thousands of people fed up with Washington, but just don't know what to do. Ask them to send a pre-written fax or email weekly to help restore our Freedom. The blessing of Freedom for us and our children are incalculable and the alternative is inconceivable.
The following sites have pre-written emails and faxes on a variety of issues available for your use. Please use them at least weekly.
www.numbersusa.com/content/ Click on myactionbuffet - immigration issues.
www.votervoice.net/Core.aspx?AID=972&APP=GAC Chose from 14 issues.
capwiz.com/gunowners/home/ Gun issues.
God Bless America,
Will Christensen National Chairman Independent American Party www.usiap.org
Please pass this along to anyone you think might be interested in joining this list.
So, for us to look toward those radical nut jobs like Feinstein, Boxer, Shumer, Clinton, et al, and then say, "They don't listen to us" is really to turn our backs on the real opportunities we have before us. If you live in the districts of the radical nut jobs, well, you are living in a district populated by radical nut jobs, your job is just going to be more difficult. But let's focus on those areas which we can have an influence in. Do you realize the Representative in the 3rd district in Alabama can cancel out the vote of Nancy Pelosi? And the junior Senator in Idaho cancels out the vote of Hillary Clinton? The point is, we do not need a 100% turn around in the houses, we need a 51% majority. Based on the numbers from the study above, we really are looking at "turning" 10-20% of the Reps and Senators, and we are on a path to regaining Liberties vs. restricting them. If you look to the radicals and project them across the board for the rest of the Congress, yea, it is hopeless, but that is not the fact. Fact is, with just a few folks being supported, emboldened by their voters back home, they WILL do the right thing. You add to this a state legislature which is supportive of a federal rep who is standing up for Liberty, and all of a sudden, the nation is turning back on course. It is extremely possible to have many state level legislatures in the bag for Liberty by the end of 2010! We already have 34 of them passing/debating 10th Amendment resolutions! These legislatures are within easy reach of "We the People". Fewer than 20 letters to your state rep, and he will consider the topic of the letters to be a Hot issue. We get a state level rep on our site, we have a strong ally, who can carry a rather large amount of weight to the federal level. Team this ally up with a dozen or more on the state level, and all of a sudden, the federal reps are under pressure and the microscope from someone they KNOW will watch them, not just the average Joe Sixpack who wrote one letter, 9 months ago about something. Folks, again, we are stepping over this easy task (relative) to try to work out a task which is nearly impossible to work out. The Founders KNEW we would face this problem. This is why they gave us such power and set up the government system the way they did. They never wanted us to face the choice they faced, of having to either submit or fight. They gave us a Third Option, which they never had, which is having control over our government, in fact, putting the keys of our nation squarely in our hands. All this talk of something stronger, is to snub our noses at the Founders sacrifices, to discount their wisdom and to surrender our very nation and Constitution for some mythical dream world of "I wish we could" land. Many of the ideas of folks for a "stronger action" are not Constitutional and they are not workable in a practical matter. Let me say this, the approach I have laid out above is in line with what the Founders would have us do, it is Constitutional, and it costs nearly nothing. Embark on this route with very little down side. Those who seek to take away Freedoms and Liberty may have a bit of an upper hand now, but their coalition is falling apart. We need to encourage their unraveling by keeping the pressure on. Persistence is what is needed on our part. They relay upon us having low stamina and short memories. If they are right, then even your "stronger methods" will fail, cause they will not be quick fixes. If they are wrong, then the Constitutional path will work just fine, and this nation will be the better, in our generation and the next generations.
|
|
|
Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 7, 2009 8:39:17 GMT -5
Not much time to respond right now, but one point I want to make Busboy, is that the purpose of the A&M is to have a way to spread the message that the Federal government has decided to begin taking guns. At that point the Constitution is dead already. We, most of us anyway, are not itching for war, but we recognize that recent events have been indicating that government is becoming less and less willing to listen. If they take the final step to disarm us to prevent armed revolt, or rebellion as you may wish to call it, we will not allow it to happen without a fight. I have much more to say, but it will have to wait. Hopefully today will be a much better day than yesterday for me, so I can organize my thoughts for a well reasoned response.
|
|
|
Post by busboy on Jul 7, 2009 13:39:31 GMT -5
If we see a train wreck coming, and hold the solution within our hands, yet not implement the solution allowing the train wreck to happen, where does that place us in the scheme of things?
1) There is a feeling of helplessness and hopelessness that is pervasive in the notion of preparing for ___________, (you fill in the blank) but not knowing or doing what you can to prevent it.
It is rather easy for folks to sit on their cans, do nothing, but talk about what they will do when someone, or something "Crosses the line". However, if we have within our power to keep that someone/something from ever getting close to the line, would that not be a better route?
2) There is a false sense of accomplishment with folks that fixate on "preparations". If you gather enough beans and bullets, then you have "done something". Well, you have in the line of preparations, but you have done nothing in the line of preventing the need for the beans and bullets.
We have been indebted to the Founders, and those that have sacrificed throughout our history, who have laid down the sacrifice for our Freedoms and Liberties. We have an obligation to those generations that come after us to preserve and pass on the nation our Founders have passed on to use. We can not do this by "preparing" for the line to be crossed, but by doing our jobs as owners of the nation.
(Do not take the last paragraph to mean to forgo preparations, just don't lean on them as a substitute for our job as owners. These are two different jobs, however, doing the first, acting as an owner, will preclude the need for the second, our preparations)
3) Would not preventing this; "the Federal government has decided to begin taking guns. At that point the Constitution is dead already. We, most of us anyway, are not itching for war, but we recognize that recent events have been indicating that government is becoming less and less willing to listen. If they take the final step to disarm us to prevent armed revolt, or rebellion as you may wish to call it, we will not allow it to happen without a fight." be a much better route than preparing for it? (again, not saying it is either or)
If we can prevent this from happening, then are we not honor bound to do so?
4) The hopelessness that many feel is manufactured. You are meant to feel hopeless by those who would steal your birthright, your nation, the gifts and blessings of our Founders. There is NO reason to feel hopeless, in fact, recent events have shown GREAT HOPE for us to prevent the federal government from crossing the line we are preparing to meet them at.
-The 34+ states which are working on, or have passed 10th Amendment Resolutions. -The many states who have passed laws against the Real ID act. -The many states and cities who have passed their own anti-illegal immigration laws, in the face of the feds desire for open borders. -The states which have passed their own, intra-State firearm laws (or working on them), that negate the ATF's authority in their state over their firearm manufacture/sale -Wyoming's law which states the local elected Sheriff is the highest law enforcement officer in the state, that any federal agency (with the specific mention of IRS and ATF) who wants to conduct an investigation/operation has to get permission from the Sheriff, and he can stop them, up to and including arrest. -The growing numbers of Tea Parties, 9-12 groups, state level legislative groups. -The unraveling of the Obama coalition. His own party is turing on him and his policies. -The growth of organizations like A&M. These are indications of the American people getting fed up. However, the solution is not to give up, but learn what can be done to preserve our nation. -The fact that many states, along with the fed, are running in the red. It is a matter of time before We the People will say enough is enough (they just need to realize it is there job and right to say enough is enough). -Firearms, ammo, storage food, seed sales, are all through the roof. Your fellow countrymen know things are not right. They just don't know what to do about it. So they bunker in and prepare for the worse. All the while, the prevention of "the worse" is right there in front of them. If they avail themselves of it, then there is no train wreck. -Efforts to repeal the 17th Amendment.
Learn from your Founders, they did everything within their power to avoid the war they faced. They never wanted you and I to have to face what they faced, so they gave us ultimate power to prevent it.
All the things we here fear coming from the federal government are preventable. If the Hearts and Minds of the American people are against the taking of guns, it will never happen. The empty suits in D.C. can pass any law their wish, however, who will they get to enforce it? This will fall upon the American people. Your neighbor the Sheriff. Your nephew the Marine Private, your uncle the Army Captain, your sister the FBI agent, your brother the National Guardsmen. No only will these Americans need to be the boots on the ground for implementing unConstitutional laws, they will have to have the support of a mass majority of the Americans around them.
Folks, there are 60-80 million gun owners in this nation. The only gun laws that are on the books are those which these 60-80 million want on the books. So, if you think the gun laws on the books are draconian, then your issue is not with the empty suits in D.C., but with the real cause, these 60-80 million who have not done their jobs as owners of the nation.
Now if these 60-80 million are doing their jobs as owners, and the representatives in D.C. are not listening, we don't just toss in the towel and bunker in. We have many more options available to us before we even get near the scene of the train wreck.
We have control of our state governments, who can control the feds. Folks, your 2 federal senators and the several house members are reliant upon the support of your state level senators and representatives for their continued re-election. We are well on our way to having the state level reps flexing this muscle upon the federal reps. It will take effort on our part, to encourage, support and demand that these state reps do just that. This is exactly where these 34 Tenth Amendment resolutions are coming from. The people of the states, pushing the representatives of the states.
If "We the People" throw our tremendous power and weight behind our state reps, all the while keeping direct pressure upon our fed reps, there is no stopping the results. It will be a sweep for Liberty, and there will be no longer a threat of the feds crossing the line.
Prepare? Of course no right minded person will say don't prepare. But, why not prevent? This is much easier than preparing and it better for today and tomorrow.
Can't convince me (or the politicians) we are doing all we can to prevent, because there is just no way for the line to even get approached, if We the People are doing our jobs as owners.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Downing on Jul 7, 2009 21:07:58 GMT -5
I tried to catch up on all the posts before I put this out there. I had a long coversation with a friend at work today who is quite level headed. Our coversation centered on why this Nation has not seen in foreign power try to invade this country (illegal immigrants aside). The answer is quite simple and that is the number of Americans who own guns. Beyond that there is the American Spirit. As a peopel we are slow to nager and slow to act upon that anger but once riled like the rattlesnake we will not back down and will strike to kill.
We further surmised that our present leadership are as aware of these facts as the Japanese were during World War II when they said that an invasion of the American main land could not take place because of the sheer numbers of guns owned by the citizens. There are many things that I would call then enemy within but stupid is not one of them. By that I do not mean just the Obama administration but the entire perversion of our politcal system and the Progressives that planned its demise for over 100 years and yes that includes members of both parties. That being said I do not believe we are on the verge of a time where the men in black will show up at our doors to take away our guns. They could never do it all in 48 hours and if they do not the blood shed would be great because most Americans once they realize what is happening will defend themselves, their homes and their rights.
That being said I agree that there is time to try to take this country back through non violent means. Is it too late? Only time will tell but to not try is to give up and that is not in the American spirit. There is much to fight for and fight over but the war should still be a war of words and ideas and a war for the hearts and minds of the American Public. Busboy is correct the road has been paved for us by the founders. At the end of that road may well be a rebellion of arms that results in a great loss of life but there are many options along that road that we must use to try to resolve this issue and retrun the Nation to a Consitutional Rebuplic by the peaceful tools at hand.
Anyone or any group that rushes to arms will only meet death and deal a blow to the cause of Freedom. They will give the enemy just cause to move against others deemed potential domestic terrorists. Their path will be as it has been one of slowly erroding away of Liberty. The end game is removal of fire arms no doubt but they have been patient and erroded that right slowly. They may feel emboldened because of their majority right now but they will take this on in a swift move. Any untimely action will only add to their power and gain them support from the general public especially in the urban areas for stricter gun control.
I apologize if I wandered here but my point is we should not fool ourselves into thinking the time is at hand for an armed revolution because it will be costly to our cause for generations to come. They may well try to force a confrontation but we need to be more patient than the enemy even if it costs us in the short term. We need to plan and build our numbers and build the call tree and our communication network. I have met very many in my area and they will never become part of this or any organization but they are well armed and waiting in the shadows and will stand when and if they are needed for Liberty. We need to figure out how to bring this group into the commincation network even if with minimal contact where they have their own loose call network and we can contact just one or two who can contact the many. Our numbers are minimal and their numbers are one thousand fold or more than ours. Spend your time meeting these people and do not expect that you will convince them to come and join us for few will. Expect at best to earn the trust of the few who will give you their contact information and they will be able to contact their network.
Rush not to meet an enemy that wishes you to do nothing more than to do so. The three things that will cause failure in such a task is too act too soon, to act too late or act when the time is right and not be committed to give everything you have. Many of the founders gave up their fortunes, their homes, members of their families and their lives to the cause of Liberty. What are you willing to give?
|
|
|
Post by brocktownsend on Jul 7, 2009 21:27:15 GMT -5
I tried to catch up on all the posts before I put this out there. I had a long coversation with a friend at work today who is quite level headed. Our coversation centered on why this Nation has not seen in foreign power try to invade this country (illegal immigrants aside). The answer is quite simple and that is the number of Americans who own guns. Beyond that there is the American Spirit. As a peopel we are slow to nager and slow to act upon that anger but once riled like the rattlesnake we will not back down and will strike to kill. We further surmised that our present leadership are as aware of these facts as the Japanese were during World War II when they said that an invasion of the American main land could not take place because of the sheer numbers of guns owned by the citizens. There are many things that I would call then enemy within but stupid is not one of them. By that I do not mean just the Obama administration but the entire perversion of our politcal system and the Progressives that planned its demise for over 100 years and yes that includes members of both parties. That being said I do not believe we are on the verge of a time where the men in black will show up at our doors to take away our guns. They could never do it all in 48 hours and if they do not the blood shed would be great because most Americans once they realize what is happening will defend themselves, their homes and their rights. That being said I agree that there is time to try to take this country back through non violent means. Is it too late? Only time will tell but to not try is to give up and that is not in the American spirit. There is much to fight for and fight over but the war should still be a war of words and ideas and a war for the hearts and minds of the American Public. Busboy is correct the road has been paved for us by the founders. At the end of that road may well be a rebellion of arms that results in a great loss of life but there are many options along that road that we must use to try to resolve this issue and retrun the Nation to a Consitutional Rebuplic by the peaceful tools at hand. Anyone or any group that rushes to arms will only meet death and deal a blow to the cause of Freedom. They will give the enemy just cause to move against others deemed potential domestic terrorists. Their path will be as it has been one of slowly erroding away of Liberty. The end game is removal of fire arms no doubt but they have been patient and erroded that right slowly. They may feel emboldened because of their majority right now but they will take this on in a swift move. Any untimely action will only add to their power and gain them support from the general public especially in the urban areas for stricter gun control. I apologize if I wandered here but my point is we should not fool ourselves into thinking the time is at hand for an armed revolution because it will be costly to our cause for generations to come. They may well try to force a confrontation but we need to be more patient than the enemy even if it costs us in the short term. We need to plan and build our numbers and build the call tree and our communication network. I have met very many in my area and they will never become part of this or any organization but they are well armed and waiting in the shadows and will stand when and if they are needed for Liberty. We need to figure out how to bring this group into the commincation network even if with minimal contact where they have their own loose call network and we can contact just one or two who can contact the many. Our numbers are minimal and their numbers are one thousand fold or more than ours. Spend your time meeting these people and do not expect that you will convince them to come and join us for few will. Expect at best to earn the trust of the few who will give you their contact information and they will be able to contact their network. Rush not to meet an enemy that wishes you to do nothing more than to do so. The three things that will cause failure in such a task is too act too soon, to act too late or act when the time is right and not be committed to give everything you have. Many of the founders gave up their fortunes, their homes, members of their families and their lives to the cause of Liberty. What are you willing to give? Right on, and your statement *below reminded me of what follows. *"we are slow to anger and slow to act upon that anger but once riled like the rattlesnake we will not back down and will strike to kill."(The following was written by my good friend Bazz, (one with whom it would be pointless to match wits against) a most welcome visitor in my home, and the individual who was arrested for refusing to take down his Battle Flag from his hotel room while attending a SCV convention. The hotel is now being sued with all proceeds going to the Kentucky SCV. BT)] *Southerners Will Be Polite Up To The Moment They Kill Youwww.namsouth.com/viewtopic.php?t=2780&highlight=kind
|
|
|
Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 8, 2009 21:00:17 GMT -5
Since I said I would respond to Busboy when I found the time, I'll offer this: As you read my first post, please note what I didn't say. I did not advocate rushing into a shooting war with the government or any other group. I made some observations about the effectiveness that a clash might have in opening eyes and clarifying the opposing positions. At least that was the intent, and when I re-read my words, I still believe that is what they say. If they are easily misconstrued to mean what you believe they do, then I will have to be more careful in how I phrase things. In addition, I have not, nor will I dispute most of your arguments. Our positions are much more similar than you apparently realize. I simply am not as optimistic as you. I see war as something the power hungry in government will have to initiate. I think Sun Tzu was correct that the best victory is in the battle/war you didn't have to fight. That is a very loose paraphrase (possibly even a bastardization) there, but it has been a while since I read The Art of War. Also note that the sources of pain that I spoke of came not only from shooting wars, but also in the form it took in Atlas Shrugged, when the worlds best and brightest went on strike and withdrew their talents from a corrupted society, leaving them to fail miserably. So, in conclusion, I do not cede the argument, since I believe we are not arguing opposing sides, we just differ on a particular subjective point. I will withdraw from the discussion, however, because we are fighting among ourselves needlessly when the true battle is beyond ourselves. Besides, you are a long winded ol' boy! You whip out three or four long posts to every one of my comparatively short ones. I don't have that kind of time.
|
|
|
Post by finnian on Jul 9, 2009 11:42:11 GMT -5
If there is to be war, it will be defensive and entirely justified. The trigger will be easy enough to see also, and this group was founded with that trigger in mind. For any reason given, attempting to disarm us will be the time to fight. What happened in New Orleans during Katrina cannot be allowed to happen on a larger scale. From what I have read too, some communities resisted the confiscation there also. It was just not reported upon.
|
|
|
Post by brocktownsend on Jul 9, 2009 11:51:04 GMT -5
If there is to be war, it will be defensive and entirely justified. The trigger will be easy enough to see also, and this group was founded with that trigger in mind. For any reason given, attempting to disarm us will be the time to fight. What happened in New Orleans during Katrina cannot be allowed to happen on a larger scale. From what I have read too, some communities resisted the confiscation there also. It was just not reported upon. Also, as mentioned before, we have to be extremely careful that we aren't tricked into initiating action. We just want to be left alone, but that is too much to ask of a Tyrant, as we have found out before.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Downing on Jul 9, 2009 19:46:06 GMT -5
Echo5 we have no conflict nor did I misunderstand your statements and I am probably no more optimistic than you are. I do however think the conversation has value and there is a need for it and therefore no value in withdrawing from it. I agree we are discussing probably different sides of the same coin. If one acts in self defense and there is truly no other recourse then it is what is.
Brock I did believe at one time that I just wanted to left alone, but I have come to realize that wanting to be left alone is one of the very things that have allowed us to get where we are. First I am not pointing a finger at anyone. This has been going on for well over 100 years. When the public is willing to be just left alone then that is when the seeds of tyranny can be sown. When the public continues to be willing to just be left alone then the seeds of tyranny can grow and flourish. We, myself included have slept too long and while we slept and were trying to left alone tyranny has taken over.
Busboy while I agree that the system is not broken it has become so perverted that it is no longer recognizable both on the national arena and on a state level at least here in NC as evident by Governor Perdu's recent comments. Can it be fixed within the system possibly. It has taken over 100 years to get to where we are and if we work within the system to fix this it will take years (not 100 perhaps but years) but it can be done but only if the power brokers and their pawns do not crank it up a notch and push this to confrontation. The chances of this are slim because if we begin to regain control of the system that means they will be losing control. Those who have power do not give it up easily. I will work within the system as long as I can and I will pray for us all.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Downing on Jul 9, 2009 19:47:05 GMT -5
Echo5 we have no conflict nor did I misunderstand your statements and I am probably no more optimistic than you are. I do however think the conversation has value and there is a need for it and therefore no value in withdrawing from it. I agree we are discussing probably different sides of the same coin. If one acts in self defense and there is truly no other recourse then it is what is.
Brock I did believe at one time that I just wanted to left alone, but I have come to realize that wanting to be left alone is one of the very things that have allowed us to get where we are. First I am not pointing a finger at anyone. This has been going on for well over 100 years. When the public is willing to be just left alone then that is when the seeds of tyranny can be sown. When the public continues to be willing to just be left alone then the seeds of tyranny can grow and flourish. We, myself included have slept too long and while we slept and were trying to left alone tyranny has taken over.
Busboy while I agree that the system is not broken it has become so perverted that it is no longer recognizable both on the national arena and on a state level at least here in NC as evident by Governor Perdu's recent comments. Can it be fixed within the system possibly. It has taken over 100 years to get to where we are and if we work within the system to fix this it will take years (not 100 perhaps but years) but it can be done but only if the power brokers and their pawns do not crank it up a notch and push this to confrontation. The chances of this are slim because if we begin to regain control of the system that means they will be losing control. Those who have power do not give it up easily. I will work within the system as long as I can and I will pray for us all.
|
|
|
Post by brocktownsend on Jul 9, 2009 20:05:45 GMT -5
Echo5 we have no conflict nor did I misunderstand your statements and I am probably no more optimistic than you are. I do however think the conversation has value and there is a need for it and therefore no value in withdrawing from it. I agree we are discussing probably different sides of the same coin. If one acts in self defense and there is truly no other recourse then it is what is. Brock I did believe at one time that I just wanted to left alone, but I have come to realize that wanting to be left alone is one of the very things that have allowed us to get where we are. First I am not pointing a finger at anyone. This has been going on for well over 100 years. When the public is willing to be just left alone then that is when the seeds of tyranny can be sown. When the public continues to be willing to just be left alone then the seeds of tyranny can grow and flourish. We, myself included have slept too long and while we slept and were trying to left alone tyranny has taken over. Busboy while I agree that the system is not broken it has become so perverted that it is no longer recognizable both on the national arena and on a state level at least here in NC as evident by Governor Perdu's recent comments. Can it be fixed within the system possibly. It has taken over 100 years to get to where we are and if we work within the system to fix this it will take years (not 100 perhaps but years) but it can be done but only if the power brokers and their pawns do not crank it up a notch and push this to confrontation. The chances of this are slim because if we begin to regain control of the system that means they will be losing control. Those who have power do not give it up easily. I will work within the system as long as I can and I will pray for us all. Commander:I agree that the chances are slim, but will continue to try as you state. As far as being left alone is concerned, I was alluding to Jefferson Davis' remarks, but come to think of it, this would not be applicable now, as he was going to a new nation, and we are attempting to right this one; however it may well apply if we do indeed try to secede, which isn't something only us rabid Southerners are thinking of now. Though I am 99% sure that Hussein would take the same course of action as Lincoln, but this time it will be freedom loving people of all states who are forced to congregate into one or more of those states which attempt this act of honour.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Downing on Jul 9, 2009 22:06:43 GMT -5
Amen Brock. Even the social libs in Vermont are reflecting about seceding. Beyond that Utah, Montana, Idaho. Once it started it would be interesting to see how the map would break down.
|
|
|
Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 10, 2009 15:44:36 GMT -5
Commander, What I meant by withdrawing from the conversation was that I would not continue on a path where the same points were being repeated ad nauseum. I have no real argument with Busboy, and sought to dispell what I saw as misconceptions of the intent of my earlier posts in this thread. So my remarks were primarily directed toward Busboy, hoping to move beyond the sticking point that we had reached. We certainly need to have a voice that preaches patience and persistence to keep hotter heads from prevailing. As I stated though, my time is limited by real life outside the forum, so I needed to make the statement, that I, in fact understood the first time he presented the point. I didn't need to read several long posts to get it.
On the matter of secession, It occurs to me that this time around will probably make it very difficult for the blue coats to prevail when there will be nothing like a Mason-Dixon line. There will likely be dozens of fronts if this were to become a modern day WBTS.
Also, in the past several years, I have come to think that even given the weaknesses in a pact such as the Articles of Confederation, which was replaced by the Constitution, something similar might be worth exploring if we were to have a total breakdown. Decentralization of power domestically would certainly diminish our ability to project power abroad, but in many cases that would be a desirable thing in my estimation. Likewise, it automatically limits the likelihood of the ascention of tyranny over all the states.
Just a couple rambling thoughts.
|
|
|
Post by brocktownsend on Jul 10, 2009 15:58:30 GMT -5
Commander, What I meant by withdrawing from the conversation was that I would not continue on a path where the same points were being repeated ad nauseum. I have no real argument with Busboy, and sought to dispell what I saw as misconceptions of the intent of my earlier posts in this thread. So my remarks were primarily directed toward Busboy, hoping to move beyond the sticking point that we had reached. We certainly need to have a voice that preaches patience and persistence to keep hotter heads from prevailing. As I stated though, my time is limited by real life outside the forum, so I needed to make the statement, that I, in fact understood the first time he presented the point. I didn't need to read several long posts to get it. On the matter of secession, It occurs to me that this time around will probably make it very difficult for the blue coats to prevail when there will be nothing like a Mason-Dixon line. There will likely be dozens of fronts if this were to become a modern day WBTS. Also, in the past several years, I have come to think that even given the weaknesses in a pact such as the Articles of Confederation, which was replaced by the Constitution, something similar might be worth exploring if we were to have a total breakdown. Decentralization of power domestically would certainly diminish our ability to project power abroad, but in many cases that would be a desirable thing in my estimation. Likewise, it automatically limits the likelihood of the ascention of tyranny over all the states. Just a couple rambling thoughts. One thing I particularly liked about the Confederate Constitution was that the chief executive was limited to one six year term. I believe a great idea, and one that should be expanded upon with senators and representatives.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Downing on Jul 10, 2009 18:57:25 GMT -5
Echo5 I agree that the line of demarcation will be irregular at nest. There would also be people going in both directions leaving blue states going to red states and the other way around. I know if the direction North Carolina took in 2008 both at a national and state was not reversed I would out of here or forced to head to mountains. your thoughts were not rambling and it would take better minds than mine to write a new constitution if it was ever done. Brock I think everyone should be limited to 6 years period. No big salary but enough that the average man would be happy with it and real expenses covered. No salary and benefits for life after service. Do your service and go back to live amongst those who sent you to office and earn a living like evryone else. What could keep you mor ehonest than knowing in six years you would be returning hoem to live amongst your neighbors.
|
|
|
Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 10, 2009 21:36:53 GMT -5
Echo5 I agree that the line of demarcation will be irregular at nest. There would also be people going in both directions leaving blue states going to red states and the other way around. I know if the direction North Carolina took in 2008 both at a national and state was not reversed I would out of here or forced to head to mountains. your thoughts were not rambling and it would take better minds than mine to write a new constitution if it was ever done. Brock I think everyone should be limited to 6 years period. No big salary but enough that the average man would be happy with it and real expenses covered. No salary and benefits for life after service. Do your service and go back to live amongst those who sent you to office and earn a living like evryone else. What could keep you mor ehonest than knowing in six years you would be returning hoem to live amongst your neighbors. One of the things I liked about the Articles of Confederation is that there was no executive. It may not be practical, in many circumstances, but in a time of war, the congress could select a point man and/or committee to head the war effort, I suppose. If we were to mind our own business as a nation, we could probably avoid most (~99%?) of the conflicts we find ourselves in today, anyway. But term limits are a must, for all offices. Yes, that means some very able statesmen will be denied the opportunity to serve for extended periods, but if we wanted a near permanent political class, we could just forgo elections, couldn't we? And amen on the no pension and return to private life point. It would definitely go a long way toward tempering a president, knowing there would be no taxpayer funded security when he leaves office.
|
|
|
Post by brocktownsend on Jul 10, 2009 21:40:02 GMT -5
Echo5 I agree that the line of demarcation will be irregular at nest. There would also be people going in both directions leaving blue states going to red states and the other way around. I know if the direction North Carolina took in 2008 both at a national and state was not reversed I would out of here or forced to head to mountains. your thoughts were not rambling and it would take better minds than mine to write a new constitution if it was ever done. Brock I think everyone should be limited to 6 years period. No big salary but enough that the average man would be happy with it and real expenses covered. No salary and benefits for life after service. Do your service and go back to live amongst those who sent you to office and earn a living like evryone else. What could keep you mor ehonest than knowing in six years you would be returning hoem to live amongst your neighbors. One of the things I liked about the Articles of Confederation is that there was no executive. It may not be practical, in many circumstances, but in a time of war, the congress could select a point man and/or committee to head the war effort, I suppose. If we were to mind our own business as a nation, we could probably avoid most (~99%?) of the conflicts we find ourselves in today, anyway. But term limits are a must, for all offices. Yes, that means some very able statesmen will be denied the opportunity to serve for extended periods, but if we wanted a near permanent political class, we could just forgo elections, couldn't we? And amen on the no pension and return to private life point. It would definitely go a long way toward tempering a president, knowing there would be no taxpayer funded security when he leaves office. You know, I would hate to lose Ron Paul, but I bet he would gladly go if this was passed, and leave with a wonderful address, thanking all for bringing us back to our senses.
|
|
|
Post by Michael Downing on Jul 11, 2009 9:51:36 GMT -5
You would lose the goods with term limits but heck the good ones are far and few between because the bad ones seem to hang on forever. In truth you could probably serve more than 6 years if it was allowed for a person to serve 6 years as in the congress and 6 years in the Senate. If the alternative is to see Barney Frank serve a lifetime then I say full steam ahead. The only life term I would like to see Frank serve is one for treason.
|
|
|
Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 11, 2009 10:08:44 GMT -5
Yes, Ron Paul. One of the few sane voices in Congress. He doesn't think we should be getting involved in matters worldwide, but he also isn't one to just have us roll over for the world either. There are those who believe he does, but they can't get beyond his assertion that we aren't blameless in all that has befallen us. The funny thing is, those who demonize him for that are the ones who complain about those claiming some sort of victim status. They don't see that they are trying to cast the US in that same role. "We were victims of such and such extremists! We did nothing to deserve..." It is my opinion that our government is directly responsible for creating our worst enemies by backing crazies like Saddam to take Iran's attention off us. It has a nasty habit of sticking its nose where it ought not. They discern this when it happens to them, or at least on the home front, but not when it is done around the world. These are the hybrid/hypocrite conservatives mostly, who call for smaller, less intrusive government, except when it comes to their causes.
|
|
|
Post by busboy on Jul 11, 2009 10:17:19 GMT -5
The 'Refreshing the Tree' needs to come from a Constitutional path, through the Hearts and Minds of the American People.
We the People set up this nation. We the People are the sole legitimate power within this nation.
The reason we are in the condition we are today is not a failing of the system established 230 years ago, but rather a failing of the Hearts and Minds of We the People.
All too often, the ideas which come from many (not pointing fingers toward anyone here) are really just their way of exercising control over their fellow Americans. It just so happens that the Socialist seem to be winning the day, today (seemingly, but actually, they have a very narrow edge).
There is no fixing this nation, 'refreshing the tree of Liberty', in today's America, unless there is a renewing of the Hearts and Minds of the American People. The form of government which would allow you or I to control the course of this nation, without the Hearts and Minds of our fellow Americans, is not the Constitutional form of government. So, again, many of the "solutions" are really revolutions, in which one group of people feel they can impose Liberty upon others.
Our current condition has been foretold of, for many years. The cause has been foretold of. The results have been foretold of. However, the solution, the antidote if you will, has been supplied, if we chose to utilize them.
I am pleasantly surprised by those here who have deferred out of this discussion on the basis of not wanting to get distracted or in being busy for the Cause of Liberty to simply "talk" about it here.
This rubber to the road mentality is what will save the day in this nation, if directed toward a Constitutional path, which our Founders provided for us.
My efforts revolve around getting real American folks, those who hold views of this nation which are inline with the Founders, connected to real tools which translate mere talk into action. Without this "talk energy" transmitted to action, there is no hope for solutions.
The simple post cards to your representatives is the easiest, simplest means to get folks initially engaged, with real tangible results. More is better, but some it better than none.
Giving our fellow concerned citizens, our family, friends, neighbors, and co-workers these simple tools to initially get them into action will result in some of these folks becoming even more active.
Our job (those who are awake and active) is to multiply our "force", meaning utilizing tools which are available to us to wake up more of our fellow countrymen and renewing their Hearts and Minds for Liberty and their obligations to preserve and pass on our nation to the next generations.
|
|
|
Post by Echo5Alpha on Jul 11, 2009 10:20:52 GMT -5
I still think we should do a deck of cards for Congress and the President like the ones for the Iraqi leadership earlier in the war. Of course, the cards would have to be all jokers. They are all pretty much jokers of the Batman variety.
|
|
|
Post by finnian on Jul 13, 2009 5:22:49 GMT -5
Term limits is worth more discussion. Our system was setup with the assumption that leaders would be ethical, moral, and of high character regardless of outside influences. Because of our system however, most of our leaders are bought and paid for before they even begin their term. We have corporatism in America today, and we have had it for a very long time too. The founders did not foresee the marriage of corporations and governments, and I believe term limits would go a long way towards divorcing the two.
|
|
|
Post by seredoc on Jul 13, 2009 12:44:37 GMT -5
"If we could orchestrate a grassroots initiative that would bring to ballot a vote of "No Confidence" in congress it would be possible to have a special election that would fill the halls of the capitol building with new blood;" As far as I know, there is no such provision in the Constitution for a "no confidence" vote, or "recall". All we have is the impeachment process. If I understand you correctly, your proposing that we bring all 535 Congressmen up on impeachment charges. That means all 100 Senators would have to vote to impeach themselves and their friends. I don't see that flying. Hence the 2nd amendment was enacted to ensure that our elected officials follow the constitution.
|
|
|
Post by busboy on Jul 14, 2009 3:43:11 GMT -5
Term limits exist in the 50 states and on the federal level, for all elected officials, it is called the ballot box.
The point is, if the American people can not see things clearly enough, are not educated enough, are not considerate enough to elect the upstanding, Constitutionally minded people to represent them, then even if you kick one scum bag out, the people will just find another scum bag to take his spot.
Term Limits, application of 2A, and most of the other "solutions" are knee jerk efforts to fine a quick and easy fix. However, UNTIL the Hearts and Minds of the American People are for Liberty and Freedom, there will be no movement toward Liberty and Freedom in this nation.
Folks, the Founders solution to our woes is right there in front of our face. We can snub our noses at their wisdom all we would like, however, they have the cure for us, if we will just implement it.
It is much easier to talk about what we wish would happen than sacrifice the time, money and effort to fix the problem with a known solution.
You all do know that there are 34 states passing/considering Tenth Amendment resolutions?
You all do know that many states have passed legislation which is in direct contradiction of federal legislation, ranging from Real ID, firearms, ATF/IRS investigations, illegal immigration, and others?
Focus on D.C. for solutions to the problems they created if you want to be depressed and disappointed, or you can get more personal with your State level reps and fix the problems.
There are some very good, very brave individuals on the State legislators in several states who are doing great work for YOUR LIBERTIES, what are you doing to help and support them?
|
|